Subject:
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Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds"
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:25:07 GMT
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Reply-To:
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{lpieniazek@novera.}stopspammers{com}
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Viewed:
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1276 times
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Frank Filz wrote:
>
> Larry Pieniazek wrote:
> >
> > Frank raises some good points. But if I am careful I will find myself
> > disagreeing with him...
>
> Well, for what it's worth, I don't disagree with any of what you say
> below, though I suspect that in a Libertopia, we might find ourselves
> supporting some different causes. That's fine with me, I don't expect
> everyone to have the same interests as I do.
Agreed. I expect Libertopia to be a GREAT place to start a commune, for
example. No pesky laws about how many unmarried people can live in the
same place to get in the way (although you may have to find a property
not already encumbered with deed covenants).
> > But, and I ask this question innocently, is there an obligation for us
> > to atone for the wrongs of our ancestors, across the board, without some
> > proof of direct culpability? I don't think that in general, that's the
> > case. (if my father robbed you personally, and I benefited from the
> > spoils even though it happened before I was born, it's legit to come
> > after me for redress, since I inherited everything when he died... but
> > don't ask me, a latecomer to this country, to make up for the 24 dollars
> > worth of beads deal that got Manhattan for the dutch, if you see what
> > I'm saying)
>
> I'm curious as to what we might do to address the situation of the
> Native Americans who we repeatedly broke treaties with, and ignored our
> own Supreme Court rulings to shove into the most undesireable corners in
> the country (and then moved them again when suddenly gold or oil was
> discovered on the land we "gave" to them). I have to admit that I'm at a
> loss as to how to do something within the bounds of Libertarianism. It
> seems to me something is due, but I can't see how to do it without
> either opening up a boundless can of worms, or forcing people like your
> family who arrived in this country after most of the damage was done, to
> pay for it. Perhaps we could give them the National Parks or something.
> Obviously the main thing would be to depend on individuals to decide
> their on their own if they have some responsibility, and to donate money
> to the cause.
Again, agreed. This IS a thorny problem. You'll recall that I previously
posed the question of how one could reconcile a desire to not have
entangling alliances and not be the world's policeman with the clear and
pressing need to put Hitler in his place that very justifiably saw us
participate in WW2. I didn't have an answer to that question and I don't
have an answer to the question of how to make it up to the Indians for
what we as a nation did. Clearly our current approach via the BIA isn't
working.
I would offer two things: first, we need to go and undo the most
egregious usurpations of property where we can untangle what was done,
and second, we need to allow Indian nations to BE soverign nations as we
promised. That means that if an Indian nation comes up with an
innovative way to raise money such as enabling casinos, selling cigs
free of tax or any one of a hundred other mechanisms, our current
approachs of allowing only some and regulating the rest must be replaced
with a hands off approach.
> *snip*
>
> > Will that be enough? I believe so, but I might be wrong. Certainly what
> > we have now seems to be fostering a permanent underclass. We have lost
> > the Great Society War on Poverty, just as we have lost the War on Drugs.
>
> Of course we will never eliminate the underclass. I do not believe ANY
> society which can be remotely successeful will generate the same income
> for everyone, and thus there will always be an underclass. There will
> probably even always be a percentage of people who can never escape that
> underclass. What I hope we can eventually achieve though is that that
> underclass (with the exception of a small number of true slackers) will
> be able to have a sufficiently good life that they don't become
> criminals because they have so much more to gain than they have to
> loose.
We will always have winners and losers. What we must strive to avoid are
*permanent* underclasses. Heirs must have the right to drink themselves
to poverty if they wish but when THEIR children come to their senses we
must not prevent them from working ther way back up.
Long term, if a society has a flux of people moving up and down, that's
OK. If it becomes stratified, that is not OK.
Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations, as the saying goes.
To Bruce: DWB is symptomatic of some of our current society's greatest
problems. The fact that racial profiling works (and it does work as a
statistical predictor... despite that, it's wrong anyway) means that we
have indeed created a permanent underclass who have almost no escape
available except for the drug trade... and who then get busted and put
in jail disproportionately. That stinks.
--
Larry Pieniazek - larryp@novera.com - http://my.voyager.net/lar
http://www.mercator.com. Mercator, the e-business transformation company
fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to lugnet.
Note: this is a family forum!
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds"
|
| Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <389A0E53.92149830@v...er.net>... (...) Of course to some extent, private enterprise would probably end up involving itself if a another Hitler (oh well, we've lost the debate again) came along and a Libertopia (...) (25 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds"
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| (...) Well, for what it's worth, I don't disagree with any of what you say below, though I suspect that in a Libertopia, we might find ourselves supporting some different causes. That's fine with me, I don't expect everyone to have the same (...) (25 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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