Subject:
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Re: Newdow in the News (again)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:44:19 GMT
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Viewed:
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2105 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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Forgive me, but that’s coming from the position of one who believes. If
every coin were stamped with the slogan “There Is No God,” would you be as
receptive to the argument that the message is secular in nature and in use?
Every piece of currency that I encounter is a reminder that the government
has formally declared me to be an outsider, based upon my lack of belief.
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But that would be to deny the history of this country, which was founded by
religious people, Dave!
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And slave-owners, and people who unleashed biological warfare upon the
indigenous population and ignored every treaty with them besides. Why don’t we
commemorate these cornerstones of our history as well?
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There are many historical religious references that
are completely benign, until some jerk like Newdow trumps up bogus
persecution charges.
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Newdow may or may not be a jerk, but you seem to be allowing that possibility to
taint the validity of his claims. Remember--the Supremes rejected his Pledge
case on a technicality, rather than on a lack of merit. And now that Dubya has
secured his far-right majority on the Court (in exact accordance with
decades-old far-right fundamentalist agenda), we can expect that they won’t give
Newdow a neutral treatment any time soon.
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Honestly, do we really need to go and find every
single religious reference and wipe it out??? Change city names? “Los
Angeles”, “St. Paul”, “San Francisco”??? It’s just crazy.
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That’s the fallacy of the slippery slope, of course. City names, and idioms
like “good-bye,” are part of the vernacular and are not a deliberate endorsement
of religion by Congress. These do commemorate our history. The emblazoning
of “in God we trust” on all currency is an explicit endorsement of religion by
the Federal government.
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The effect, however, comes off as a direct attack on Christians. And they
are fighting back.
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Oh, come on. Christians (not you personally, but as a group-in-the-media)
portray themselves and are portrayed as a persecuted minority, when in fact they
are the overwhelming supermajority and have held a stranglehold on the culture
and government for well over two centuries.
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Simply because one is not forced by the government to ever say (the Pledge),
I would think.
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That’s not correct. If I wish to say the official, state-endorsed Pledge of
Allegiance to the Flag of my (secular by charter) nation, then I am forced to
swear fealty to God.
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But it comes from the people with the understanding that ultimately it came
from the Creator-- that our rights are inalienable, even if a government of
the people, for the people, and by the people try and take them away.
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That’s an assumption, and it’s irrelevant in any case. Because the Constitution
makes no reference to the Creator, and because it explicitly attributes its
authority to the will of the people, you have no basis for arguing otherwise.
Extraneous explanatory documents (such as personal correspondence) are likewise
irrelevant, because they carry no legal weight and because we both know that
there are many documents in which Jefferson et al argued for an inviolable wall
between church and state.
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Well, I’m sure you’d recognize that to be a statement of faith. Many
factors have contributed to the success of our system, such as naturally
protected borders, abundant resources, cultural and ethnic diversity, blind
luck, etc. etc. etc. If we want to throw a personal (though not national)
belief in God onto that same pile, sure, why not? But it’s a mistake to
identify it as the sole or primary cause for our success (such as it is)...
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Many countries have naturally protected borders, resources, etc, and have not
achieved what we have. Blind luck is hardly the reason.
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Not the reason, perhaps, but surely one of the reasons. And could you
name a few of those other countries? I can think of two: Russia and China, both
of which have histories far older than ours and both of which have enjoyed
legendary prosperity in that time. Check back on the US in a thousand years or
so, and we’ll talk about how freedom and belief in God have made all the
difference.
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Freedom is the reason. We have excelled because we have embraced freedom.
Period. My only point is that it was religious people, for the most part,
who figured that one out.
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You’ve got to be kidding! Our nation’s founding documents were products of The
Enlightenment. In fact, I would say that we’ve prospered in spite of religion,
rather than because of it.
Dave!
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Newdow in the News (again)
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| (...) I would question your characterization of two of our governmental branches being under control of fundamentalists. They may be under conservative control, but that doesn't mean that they will kowtow to the fundamental right. I am not in favor (...) (18 years ago, 16-Jun-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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