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Subject: 
Re: Newdow in the News (again)
Newsgroups: 
lugnet.off-topic.debate
Date: 
Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:49:03 GMT
Viewed: 
2221 times
  
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
   In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:

  
   Well, I guess I just wonder why Christians don’t get upset at this widespread violation of the 2nd Commandment. I mean, if the phrase is “secular in nature and in use,” then that’s a pretty serious dilution of the Big Guy’s name, isn’t it?

But your interesting angle only answers the question, because it is not the intention of Christians to turn the US into a theocracy, Dave! Look, this nation was founded by people who sought religious freedom, to be free to worship their God in any way they saw fit (or not to have to worship at all, for that matter).

I’m down with that, but here’s the problem. The same current-day (and vocal, and generally unopposed in public) fundamentalists who complained about the so-called War on Christmas wouldn’t see it that way, and since they control at least two branches of the government, it becomes even more significant.

I would question your characterization of two of our governmental branches being under control of fundamentalists. They may be under conservative control, but that doesn’t mean that they will kowtow to the fundamental right. I am not in favor of our country becoming a theocracy; obviously, it is expressly forbidden by the Constitution.

   These are the ones who surprise me most, since they wouldn’t tolerate an ad campaign that featured a secular version of Jesus selling XBox or tampons or whatever. Clearly there is “acceptable use” and “unacceptable use,” but if the message is indeed intended by its authors to be secular, then believers surely have no grounds for objecting to it.

Jesus selling tampons should, in theory, be acceptable. Hopefully, the GP would be so offended by such an insensitive ad campaign that it would result in poor sales and the market would determine “acceptable” and unacceptable” use.

  
   It’s all about the freedom. Yeah, the country was founded by religious people, but they didn’t care if you practiced their religion or not, and they were determined to make sure that the government certainly didn’t have a say in the matter, either. So, Newdow can whine all he wants, but in the end, there is no evidence of coercion by the government making him (or anyone) worship or think in any particular way or not.

Forgive me, but that’s coming from the position of one who believes. If every coin were stamped with the slogan “There Is No God,” would you be as receptive to the argument that the message is secular in nature and in use? Every piece of currency that I encounter is a reminder that the government has formally declared me to be an outsider, based upon my lack of belief.

But that would be to deny the history of this country, which was founded by religious people, Dave! There are many historical religious references that are completely benign, until some jerk like Newdow trumps up bogus persecution charges. Honestly, do we really need to go and find every single religious reference and wipe it out??? Change city names? “Los Angeles”, “St. Paul”, “San Francisco”??? It’s just crazy. The effect, however, comes off as a direct attack on Christians. And they are fighting back.

   By the way, Newdow’s argument against the “under God” phrase in the pledge was far stronger, because Congress and Eisenhower explicitly endorsed the phrase as an oath of fealty to the Christian God. How that passes Constitutional muster, I have no idea.

Simply because one is not forced by the government to ever say it I would think.

  
   I like the phrase “In God We Trust”, because it is direct notice to the government that it is not the ultimate arbiter of Truth or law. There is a higher law and power to which even the government is accountable. IGWT never actually defines this power, but simply asserts that governments answer to a high authority.

But that, too, is an explicit endorsement of religion and is therefore unconstitutional. Sure, the Declaration of Independence refers to a creator, but that’s not a document of US law, so it’s irrelevant in this case. The US Constitution asserts--correctly--that its authority comes solely from the people, without mentioning God or any other higher power.

But it comes from the people with the understanding that ultimately it came from the Creator-- that our rights are inalienable, even if a government of the people, for the people, and by the people try and take them away.

  
   I happen to like the idea of “secularing the nature and use” of the term “God”. God is as much an idea and a concept as much as he is an old man with a long, white beard;-) I firmly believe that the concept of “God” and the concept of “freedom” are inexorably linked. And this IMO explains the success of our system above all others.

Well, I’m sure you’d recognize that to be a statement of faith. Many factors have contributed to the success of our system, such as naturally protected borders, abundant resources, cultural and ethnic diversity, blind luck, etc. etc. etc. If we want to throw a personal (though not national) belief in God onto that same pile, sure, why not? But it’s a mistake to identify it as the sole or primary cause for our success (such as it is)...

Many countries have naturally protected borders, resources, etc, and have not achieved what we have. Blind luck is hardly the reason. Freedom is the reason. We have excelled because we have embraced freedom. Period. My only point is that it was religious people, for the most part, who figured that one out.

JOHN



Message has 1 Reply:
  Re: Newdow in the News (again)
 
(...) And slave-owners, and people who unleashed biological warfare upon the indigenous population and ignored every treaty with them besides. Why don't we commemorate these cornerstones of our history as well? (...) Newdow may or may not be a jerk, (...) (18 years ago, 19-Jun-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Message is in Reply To:
  Re: Newdow in the News (again)
 
(...) I'm down with that, but here's the problem. The same current-day (and vocal, and generally unopposed in public) fundamentalists who complained about the so-called War on Christmas wouldn't see it that way, and since they control at least two (...) (18 years ago, 14-Jun-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)  

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