 | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Kyle McDonald
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| | | (...) The leadership of the army knew that the hotel was full of journalists, and avoided making it an explicit target. However I don't think that every front line soldier is given a map of every building and told which to shoot and which not to. (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | (...) I won't dispute that the leadership knew of the hotel, not that it did not want reporters killed. I ask you though, "to avoid making it an explicit target", isn't it implying it can very well be an "implicit" one, whatever that may be? (...) I (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) As I pointed out in another post, people on the 11th floor didn't hear the actual explosion loudly enough to find it suspicious, so the failure to hear rifle fire is hardly incredible. I work in a conventional office building--if someone fired (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | | | (...) I'll agree they probably didn't give an order that the building should never be shot at. I think that order would be just as idiotic. I don't think they shot at it just to shoot at reporters though either. Which some news reports have (...) (21 years ago, 8-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | (...) Please elaborate. Personally, I think a (known to be occupied) hotel is a "don't shoot" place, much like a hospital. If the troops see anything that disproves that, then they should report to the hierarchy and ask for orders. It was a very (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) I think this particular regime waived that notion when they started stationing (and firing) AA from inside hospitals and stationing (and firing) tanks next to mosques. These reporters were told that Baghdad was a dangerous place and they would (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Evolution? Don't you mean natural selection? Cheers Richie (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | (...) So what - you soot the mosque next to the tank, or the tank? Do you shoot the hospital wards next to the AA, or the AA? Or in this case, does the tank shoot at the MoI (target), or the hotel some 100+ meters from it? (...) Precisely. Those are (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) You shoot the tank, or the AA, and hope for the best. I like Frank's analysis... if your enemy is desperate enough to blow off the normal rules of war, you don't get a free pass, you still have to do your best to stick to your own rules and (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | | (...) A clever idea, but a common misconception: after tens of thousands of years of people existing, most of us are still pretty stupid - at least some of the time (hey, I persist in posting to o-t.d!). The long run must be pretty long indeed! (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Actually, I'd say we're pretty smart. In reality, I think the average person doesn't have much care for most of what goes on in the world because it simply doesn't really effect them (see my earlier discussion on the total impact to me (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Stupid People (was Re: Hotel Palestine) —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Probably true. But Larry's assertion was that stupid people getting themselves killed was 'evolution in action'. Assuming that when Larry says 'evolution' he means 'evolution [of something] through natural selection', I see no evidence that (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | (...) And is it your responsability? Or accountability, if you prefer? (...) There was no such thing. If there were an RPG, knoing it's fire would have been obviously noticed (and reporters had the time to run), it could be taken down with a shell. (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) Do they have to wait for orders from above for ANY threat? How far up do they have to go to wait for orders? Does each soldier have to call Bush (commander in chief) on the phone before shooting someone who might be a non-combatant? Soldiers (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | (...) No. (...) It's not just "wait for orders"; is "wait for superior assessment of the altered situation". The hotel, which would in abstract be a non-target, might become one AFTER command's assessment of the situation. They receive info from the (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) If the sniper had fired an RPG at the tanks instead of an AK-47 (or whatever), would you likewise assert that the targeted soldiers should hunker down and wait? And, once you agree that the presence of an RPG changes things, you'll need to (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | (...) No. In case an RPG had been fired, people (near it) in the hotel would have been able to tell and run away. And the response would have been proportional. Then again, was there a sniper? (...) Would a sniper be so IDIOT to the point of (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) But why does some "commander" have to make a decision? The tank commander is a "commander". If a tank commander can't make immediate decisions, then how can you argue that anyone short of the chief can make decisions? Does a private have to (...) (21 years ago, 10-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | (...) Targets suspected of housing the enemy, but known to house third parties. Regarding the command level, I argue the commander of the tank hadn't got enough information to make that specific decision: he should have been told it was a hotel, and (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | (...) First Al Cezirah Baghdad office (bombing, 1 cameraman died, three injured), then Abu Dabi TV Baghdad office (tank fire, no causalties), then Hotel Palestine (tank fire, two died, three injured). All in yesterday, all in just a single day. I'm (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Hotel Palestine —Kyle McDonald
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| | | | (...) Actually motives are a good question. What possible motive could they have had to kill *any* journalist, that would have provided a benefit to them that was worth all the bad press they are receiving now? They have been going out of their way (...) (21 years ago, 9-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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