Subject:
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Re: First entry in "predict the responses!"
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 22 May 2002 18:40:53 GMT
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Viewed:
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337 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > (and also maybe to defuse the flame war that might soon be erupting about
> > > returning stuff bought at another store)
> > >
> > > http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire050902.asp
> > >
> > > Who can most accurately predict how each of the usual suspects will react to
> > > that one? (no need to post, you can just keep score in your head).
> >
> > Well, I want to start at the gate, to see who would predict my rather
> > predictable response. I see the core of Mr. Derbyshire's argument
> > right here:
> >
> > "What a world! You can only read a certain amount of this
> > stuff before you start to avert your eyes. What on earth
> > can anyone hope to do about all this? All the simple expla-
> > nations for the horrors that stain a large part of our planet
> > have been used up. We now know that it's not the fault of
> > colonialism, or neo-colonialism, or capitalism, or socialism.
> > It's just the way these places are. They can't handle modernity,
> > for some cultural reason we don't understand and can't do
> > anything about."
> >
> > This is absolute and complete BS; it's a perfectly colonial attitude,
> > in fact. The backwards condition of the states he mentions--and that
> > includes the condition of people like the Palestinians--has its roots
> > in colonialism; it's perpetuated and made worse by globalization and
> > global capitalism.
>
> <snip>
>
> I have to say I started by reading the conclusion first. This line
> caught my eye:
>
> “Being Arabs, they are incapable of constructing a rational polity, so their
> future is probably hopeless whatever happens.”
>
> As I am not aware of any genetic study which has proven that “Arabs”
> specifically are incapable of being rational, this initially struck me as a
> rather racist statement. However, reading the rest of the text (together
> your own analysis), I have come to the conclusion that JB is either ignorant
> or is preaching to the converted.
>
> Scott A
I thought that the entire article was written with a cynnical 'tongue in
cheek' method. I don't think the author is racist, but rather looking at
the "facts" as he sees them and saying that' "Hey, you've had just as much
opportunity thru the centuries to do 'better' (read western civ better if
you wish, but whatever) as anyone else but you haven't, over and over and
over again."
In the bible it says, and is proven in real life, that the sins of the
father *usually* happen to the second to third generation. Alcoholic
fathers have a better chance of having alcolohic children, as any abuser
often has kids that grow up to be abusers. It's not 100 percent, but it has
a higher than average chance that it will.
And that's in a family environment. If these abuses are perpetuated by the
society in general, that totally reinforces the abuse. I reiterate,
Governement sanctioned abuse/terror/racism/sexism/whatever *does* *not*
*make* the abuse/terror/racism/sexism/whatever right.
I don't hold up the ideas and ideals of Western Civ as the hope, the light,
the measure of humankind by any stretch of the imagination. We have our own
issues and transgressions that we are surmounting.
The author stated, rightly, that there have been *many* places in the world
subjected to colonialism, as in Hong Kong, and these places picked
themselves up by their own bootstraps and 'grew up'. Instead of the
snivvling little 5 year old who was 'done wrong' so many years ago and wants
to hold a grudge until it eats them up from the inside, these places did
something constructive, rational, thoughtful. No vendettas, no shaking
fists at fate, whatever.
WHen the autor says
> “Being Arabs, they are incapable of constructing a rational polity, so their
> future is probably hopeless whatever happens.”
it is cynnical tongue in cheek -- it's like saying, 'oh you say you stopped
drinking (smoking, doing coke, whatever--well, you've said that 10 times
before. prove to me that you mean it now.'
Sure I hear that peace is wanted. I hear that terror is abhorred. I hear
that they want to do better. I hear many many things. I also read
terrorists walking into buildings, blowing them up. Words are just words
until action happens, reinforcing the words.
I have a family memeber who doesn't quite seem to get it--how to live in the
world. The sweetest nicest guy in the world (much nicer than I have ever
been) but he can't seem to keep a job, or money, for whatever reasons. He
buys 50 inch screen tv's on those payment plans when his credit card(s) are
maxed, when his rent is past due, when he still is paying off the living
room/dining room/bedroom suites.
I, as well as most family members, contributed financial, emotional,
whatever support we could possibly give. We have opened doors into the job
markets, we have tried to discuss, get counselling, whatever we could do.
It is a train wreck waiting to happen. I'm 35. I've been watching this
train wreck over and over again for the last 15 years. You *do* get to the
point when you have to avert your eyes. We love him but, seriously, you
have to say, 'Well, now what? You say you want to get better yet it just
doesn't happen.' The words are not equalling the actions.
Blaming America (western civ) for the problems in the Arab nations is
completely totally equal to blaming the Arab nations for 9/11. We are all,
each of us, responsible for our own actions. If we want to improve our
situation in life, whether that situation is becoming more like western civ
or like something else, but an improvement from where we are now, we have to
do it ourselves. Yes we could use help from others if it is needed and
offered--but don't go demanding it. As well, if you want help, don't slap
the hand that offers it to you. If you don't like the form of help offered,
then quit yer b*tching and do it yourself.
Above all, do not, do not, *do not*, sit there with a plank in your eyes and
tell me to remove the speck out of mine. Do not impose your terror/vendetta
on me. *I* did not in any way, shape or form, hurt you, and if given the
chance, I would love to help you where I could. Stop blowing up buildings.
Stop shooting people. When you talk peace--mean it for more than a cease
fire on Christmas Eve. For the sake of the sanctity of life, get over it.
As a final thought, coming from West Wing last week, which highlights the
one thing I have always appreciated about America and the way they do
things, is their extraordinary efforts to minimize civilian casualties.
America 'measures success by how *few* civilians are killed--'Todays enemy'
measures success by how *many* civilians were killed. Pregnant women are
walking into buildings with explosives strapped to them.' (paraphrased from
the show) Yeah, talk to me about peace and the sanctity of life when your
words mean something other than noise to cover up your killing.
Dave
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: First entry in "predict the responses!"
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| (...) Look at it this way. Perhaps what he is trying to point out is that a government based upon a religion *is* irrational. I am all for the separation of church and state as I'm sure you are as well-- the Arabs terrorists and Arab state (...) (23 years ago, 22-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: First entry in "predict the responses!"
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| <snip> (...) I can't agree HK is all that good a comparator. The cold war also had a huge impact in the ME… this was less true of HK. (...) What if the wrong, which happened so many years ago, is continuing? (...) You are using the actions of a (...) (23 years ago, 23-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: First entry in "predict the responses!"
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| (...) <snip> I have to say I started by reading the conclusion first. This line caught my eye: “Being Arabs, they are incapable of constructing a rational polity, so their future is probably hopeless whatever happens.” As I am not aware of any (...) (23 years ago, 22-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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