Subject:
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Re: MOC: German WWII halftrack and armoured car
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.build.military
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Date:
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Tue, 14 Jan 2003 01:51:57 GMT
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Viewed:
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1442 times
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In lugnet.build.military, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.build.military, Craig Stevens writes:
> > The intention of my original email was to answer Henry Henkleman's comments
> > that TLC should produce military based sets. He seemed to miss the point
> > that many parents do not like buying war related toys for their young
> > children. I think Star Wars and WW1 planes (And yes, I do know about WW1
> > thank you) are about as far as they will go. We are not about to see tanks,
> > trench playsets and barbed wire. TLC are NOT producing military sets in the
> > same style as their
> > competitors (I'd mention the company names, but I'd have to spit on the carpet).
>
> Yes, but first of all that was a public post (not a private
> email), and second you made a value judgement about adults who
> *are* interested in the military and show this with LEGO
> in your words. Just as you did in this post. I responded
> to it because the implication was very clear; you expressed
> derision for those who did not agree with TLC's policy or
> who produce after-market military kits/MOCs. That is your
> perogative, of course, but expect to be challenged on it.
I did indeed expect to be challenged and in your response, you have given me
very good run for my money. For that I salute you. For the record, I don't
deride people who create military MOCs (That's a bit strong) it's that I
don't understand the attraction of taking minifigs and sticking them in tanks.
>
> By the way, your original point is a good one; it is indeed
> true that many people prefer not to have military-themed
> items in their children's play repertoire (though the jury
> is still out on its effects upon children). And that's
> fine. But we parted ways when you suggested that AFOLs
> ought also hew to that.
It's nice to agree on something and also to have a discussion without it
becoming acrimonious. This is just a hobby at the end of the day.
>
> > In the same vein, there have been countless books, films and television
> > programmes aimed at young children, based on sci-fi, pirates and knights.
> > There have even been family films and programmes based on WW1 flyers. At no
> > point has the nitty gritty of the ground conflict come into the picture.
> > You guys may have missed the point, but you don't get titles like "Peter the
> > Panzer" next to "Captain Pugwash." There is a distinct difference.
>
> It's one of willful ignorance on the part of the wider historical
> mind of Europe and North America. The reason why First World
> War flyers' exploits were so very remarkable was *precisely*
> because of the carnage going on in the trenches--it gave people
> hope that somewhere, somehow, the romantic fantasies of the
> wars of Empire and "chivalry" might still exist in an era of
> total war. (The same holds true with people's fascination with
> Rommel and the Afrika Korps.) The difference is where one
> considers it prudent to erect a barrier between observance and
> omission.
I'm not doubting that. Whether it is right or wrong, TLC consideres WW1
planes to be a "safe" subject matter, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing those
models.
>
> My personal experience is that TLC folks appreciate the tech-
> nical merit of *all* models. And as someone who's done very
> well with large military models at each of the three BrickFests
> to date, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say military
> MOCs most certainly *are* crowd-pleasers in AFOL venues (which
> is a major difference from Lego World, as has been pointed out;
> LW attracts lots of young children and non-fans). But I see
> no real difference between creating a 20th-century warship and a
> 17th-century ship of the line morally, even though TLC might.
>
> TLC is of course made up of people; the "policy" was OKK's
> (and is now KKK's)--though the lines have been eroding.
>
> > If AFOLs must build military based MOCs, at least show some real skill and
> > construct a working technic model - not have minifigs rolling around in
> > tanks and totting machine guns. I have seen bombed out buildings, suicide
> > bombers and the like on Brickshelf. Elsewhere some guy has made a German
> > extermination camp from Lego.
>
> Suicide bombers? Where? And as for the death camp, that's
> not an AFOL's creation. That's an independent artist's item,
> and it falls into a category all its own both in its intent,
> its creation, and its appeal. The bombed-out building was a
> piece of scenery for a model, but it might as easily have
> been a scene for a steam-shovel. Why can't creating a careful
> and fidelit scale model--such as Shaun's or Carl's tanks or
> U-Boats--be recognized for its own sake? I'd hate to hear
> what you think of BrikWars.
Brikwars? We don't have that in the U.K. I'll have to check it out if I ever
make it as far as one of the shows running it. If I ever find that suicide
bomber that I saw on Brickshelf, I'll let you know.
>
> > Is this "harmless"? We are all adults, right?
> > Where are you lot going to draw the line? Is there going to be some nice
> > battle scenes on Brickshelf, with dead bodies strewn eveywhere? Their happy
> > smiling faces would no doubt add to the grizzly humor. Would you display
> > that at a Lego show to please the crowd?
>
> You know better than that. That's a totally bankrupt argument.
> The only difference between your acceptance of TLC's war-toys
> and the models created by AFOLs (remember that A there) is
> *where you choose to put your blinders.* You might as well ask
> if the Castle people are going to show plague scenes or any
> small villages being pillaged and villagers put to the sword
> (which wasn't all that uncommon back in those hoary days).
> "Yet you can appreciate Castle creations? That's hypocrisy!"
>
> We choose to put our blinders between the machines and the
> carnage. It's no less impermeable a boundary, MOC-wise, to us
> than yours is to you. You don't agree, fine; but to characterize
> us (the military-builder cadre) as somehow morally flawed or
> ignorant and naive for it is really very unfair.
I take it from your answer, that you wouln't go as far as creating graphic
battle scenes and that's good to know. The people building medieval scenes
have a little more leway in that area.
>
> By the way, "grizzly" is a bear; the word you're looking for
> is spelled "grisly." Sorry; homophones are a pet peeve of mine.
One tiny mistake... Like I am now, I'm usually up at some ridiculously late
hour typing out these messages. if there are spelling mistakes here, I'm
afraid you'll have to live with it.
>
> > While TLC has the noble (If financially painful) stance of not producing
> > military sets, I'll lend my support. If others do not want to respect that
> > policy and continue to construct military based models, to use an old phrase
> > "it isn't clever and it isn't funny."
>
> I'm really not sure what you're imputing with that last line;
> nobody here is trying to be clever or funny. In fact, TLC
> has no policy on what the consumer should or shouldn't build;
> so building military models is not disrespecting their policy
> of not themselves producing "modern war toys".
I'd be interested to know LTC's policy on what it preffers AFOLs to build.
Those contributing to Lego World are certainly seen as ambassadors and a
vital link between TLC and the public. I don't know about the Brickfests you
have been to. I am not aware of how much TLC is involved.
>
> The goal is to reproduce the machines or the scenery, not to
> glorify war. When are people going to realize there's a difference
> between recognizing and even having an interest in history and
> glorifying it? Or, for that matter, between understanding the
> evils of war and justifying it? Please feel free to vote with
> your MOC votes at shows, or with your dollars at the till, but
> moralizing in .build.military is, volgens mij, about as effec-
> tive as shining a flashlight at the sun. All it leaves you with
> is drained batteries. ;)
It is treading a fine line creating military vehicles and bombed out
buildings (It's at this point that I remember my girlfriend saying "You lot
are pretty sad arguing about this") but I'm satified that your military MOCs
are not intended as a glorification of war. Of course it would be pointless
to try to talk you out of making military models and I'm not trying. It is
nice to know how you justify it and quite a lot of fun debating the issues.
As I mentioned earlier, I can't see the attraction in it and I expect that I
never will.
I'll definitely vote with my MOCs at shows. Perhaps if we met, you'd be able
to show me a thing or two about putting bricks together and maybe I could do
the same for you. Perhaps it's the late hour but I'm getting all chummy now...
Stay cool.
Craig Stevens. >
>
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: MOC: German WWII halftrack and armoured car
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| (...) Of course you'll get a good run for your money from me when talking about historical imagery and selective vision; I'm a professional historian, after all. ;) But why sticking the minifigs in tanks--that's an interesting philosophical (...) (22 years ago, 14-Jan-03, to lugnet.build.military)
| | | Re: MOC: German WWII halftrack and armoured car
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| (...) Not to add fuel to this fire, but the are more than a few suicide-bomber and bombed-out-building photos on Brickshelf, and by coincidence I think all of them are in the context of BrikWars games. Specifically, NELUG's games, so we know that (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jan-03, to lugnet.build.military)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: MOC: German WWII halftrack and armoured car
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| (...) Yes, but first of all that was a public post (not a private email), and second you made a value judgement about adults who *are* interested in the military and show this with LEGO in your words. Just as you did in this post. I responded to it (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jan-03, to lugnet.build.military)
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