| |
Well, I finally finished my train tables. They basically form a square 10'
on a side. I'm having some efficiency problems with the largest loop. I'm
having to use 3 engines to pull 4 of the cars from 4561. The loop's length
is nearing 40'.
What techniques have people used to combat the resistance build up in a
large layout? I was thinking of lubricating the wheels with WD40, graphic,
or silicone spray.
I was also considering trying to run power to the opposite side of the
track. If I did something like that, would I add another lead to the same
transformer or use a second transformer?
Regards,
Steve Martin, #57
IndyLUG
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Steve Martin writes:
> Well, I finally finished my train tables. They basically form a square 10'
> on a side. I'm having some efficiency problems with the largest loop. I'm
> having to use 3 engines to pull 4 of the cars from 4561. The loop's length
> is nearing 40'.
How are the engines configured? One or two 2 truck locos, well weighted,
ought to be able to pull well in excess of 20 4 axle cars on a level track,
even through curves (people run way more than that but this is easy to
achieve). So your configuration may not be ideal. The stock 4561 loco is a
terrible puller, it has way too little weight on the drive wheels.
> What techniques have people used to combat the resistance build up in a
> large layout? I was thinking of lubricating the wheels with WD40, graphic,
> or silicone spray.
The resistance build up is electrical, more than mechanical. I would
strongly advocate that you avoid any lubrication. These motors and axles are
engineered to not be lubricated.
> I was also considering trying to run power to the opposite side of the
> track. If I did something like that, would I add another lead to the same
> transformer or use a second transformer?
Both of these approaches have been successfully used and would give good
results, IMHO. Whichever is easier to do would be my recommendation.
++Lar
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Steve Martin writes:
> > Well, I finally finished my train tables. They basically form a square 10'
> > on a side. I'm having some efficiency problems with the largest loop. I'm
> > having to use 3 engines to pull 4 of the cars from 4561. The loop's length
> > is nearing 40'.
>
> How are the engines configured? One or two 2 truck locos, well weighted,
> ought to be able to pull well in excess of 20 4 axle cars on a level track,
> even through curves (people run way more than that but this is easy to
> achieve). So your configuration may not be ideal. The stock 4561 loco is a
> terrible puller, it has way too little weight on the drive wheels.
<snip>
>
> ++Lar
Thanks, Larry.
I'm using a 2 motor engine and a 1 motor engine. Both are ~24 stud MOCs. I
suppose I should swap some motors around to see if there are problems with
the motors I'm using. I first tried just the 2 motor engine to pull the 4
cars, and it couldn't cut it.
|
|
| |
> Thanks, Larry.
>
> I'm using a 2 motor engine and a 1 motor engine. Both are ~24 stud MOCs. I
> suppose I should swap some motors around to see if there are problems with
> the motors I'm using. I first tried just the 2 motor engine to pull the 4
> cars, and it couldn't cut it.
I'd tend to think that it is a electrical issue. I have hauled 92(IIRC) cars
with a single motor- so, you should be able to manage 4 with one motor, under a
suitable engine (reasonably heavy). Do the wheels slip on the engine? or does
it just slow down away from the power point to a crawl? If it slows down, then
you need to add another power connection (put it right across from the first
one, connect it with the long (128cm) wires, you may have to switch the wires
around by 180 the first time to get the train to move at all-otherwise, divide
the track into 2 sections (electrically) and power using a 2nd transformer
So:
if fault is slipping-make heavier engine
if fault is slowing down away from power supply, add 2nd connector wire ect...
But, a single motor should pull 4 cars without any problem at all...
James
(off to play with DCC :)
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Steve Martin writes:
> Well, I finally finished my train tables. They basically form a square 10'
> on a side. I'm having some efficiency problems with the largest loop. I'm
> having to use 3 engines to pull 4 of the cars from 4561. The loop's length
> is nearing 40'.
>
> What techniques have people used to combat the resistance build up in a
> large layout? I was thinking of lubricating the wheels with WD40, graphic,
> or silicone spray.
>
> I was also considering trying to run power to the opposite side of the
> track. If I did something like that, would I add another lead to the same
> transformer or use a second transformer?
>
> Regards,
> Steve Martin, #57
> IndyLUG
Steve, LEGO® train wheels are not designed to be lubricated. The oil will
destroy the rubber traction tires on the 9V motors resulting in total loss
of traction (not to mention dirt buildup on all wheels concerned). Just my
10 cents worth...-Harvey
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, James Powell writes:
[snip]
>
> So:
> if fault is slipping-make heavier engine
> if fault is slowing down away from power supply, add 2nd connector wire ect...
>
> But, a single motor should pull 4 cars without any problem at all...
One last hint:
if the wheels sets are quite old and have been used for most of the time under
heavy duty, then they might have evidently wear in their bearings.
The 9V wheel blocks are using "tip bearings" (sorry I have not found the
translation for "Spitzenlager" in
any dictionary). I mean a bearing as used for e.g. in good mechanical clocks.
These bearings are not made for higher loads, but their main advantage is their
very low friction.
But if the abrasive wear increases a certain level, then the spinning wheels
will touch the wheelblock on their top side. My friend Torsten has used some
trains in his wifes pharmacie display. These waggons had this problem after a
running time of a few month (depending on the wheight of the waggons).
I myself have bought a few used waggons from children, which have the same
problems. Maybe the wheel blocks are dedroyed in one short moment, if you try
to use the waggon as a "skateboard". Children are so creative sometimes....
So please check:
- are all the wheel able to rotate free without getting in contact with the
wheelblock.
Kind Regards,
Ben
P.s.: The record for the longest pulled train (without any extra
engines/motors within the train) is still at an amount of 126 waggons! Two
engines with 4 motors at the front and 108 beer waggons from 2126 + 18 tipper
waggons have been driven by 4 people at the 4 transformers for a few rounds on
a big track oval in late december 2000:
http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~rbeneke/lego/fgltc/5_te_005.jpg
the engines:
http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~rbeneke/lego/fgltc/5_te_019.jpg
the whole story:
http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~rbeneke/lego/fgltc/fgltc5.html
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, James Powell writes:
>
> > Thanks, Larry.
> >
> > I'm using a 2 motor engine and a 1 motor engine. Both are ~24 stud MOCs. I
> > suppose I should swap some motors around to see if there are problems with
> > the motors I'm using. I first tried just the 2 motor engine to pull the 4
> > cars, and it couldn't cut it.
>
> I'd tend to think that it is a electrical issue. I have hauled 92(IIRC) cars
> with a single motor- so, you should be able to manage 4 with one motor, under a
> suitable engine (reasonably heavy). Do the wheels slip on the engine? or does
> it just slow down away from the power point to a crawl? If it slows down, then
> you need to add another power connection (put it right across from the first
> one, connect it with the long (128cm) wires, you may have to switch the wires
> around by 180 the first time to get the train to move at all-otherwise, divide
> the track into 2 sections (electrically) and power using a 2nd transformer
>
> So:
> if fault is slipping-make heavier engine
> if fault is slowing down away from power supply, add 2nd connector wire ect...
>
> But, a single motor should pull 4 cars without any problem at all...
>
>
> James
> (off to play with DCC :)
I went back and looked at what was happening again. The problem is
definately slippage and not lack of electrical power. I added 2 of the
weight bricks and that helped quite a bit. I was able to pull the 4 cars
from 4561 then with just the one 2 motor engine.
However, the engine is still working very hard to do this (even if it isn't
slipping). The carriages from my 2 4561 sets seem to be very heavy compared
to my other cars and the wheels don't seem to roll particularly well. I
took the little cars out of the car transporter carriages to lighten the
load some. Has anyone else noticed this?
Thanks for all the responses.
Regards,
Steve Martin
IndyLUG
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Steve Martin writes:
> In lugnet.trains, James Powell writes:
[snip]
>
> I went back and looked at what was happening again. The problem is
> definately slippage and not lack of electrical power. I added 2 of the
> weight bricks and that helped quite a bit. I was able to pull the 4 cars
> from 4561 then with just the one 2 motor engine.
>
> However, the engine is still working very hard to do this (even if it isn't
> slipping). The carriages from my 2 4561 sets seem to be very heavy compared
> to my other cars and the wheels don't seem to roll particularly well. I
> took the little cars out of the car transporter carriages to lighten the
> load some. Has anyone else noticed this?
No, there has to be something wrong with your wheel blocks. Maybe they have
collected lots of dust, maybe they have a quality lack....
If you put your waggons on a table with straight track on it and you make a
slight ramp out of the table, by adding just a standard 2x4x1 brick underneath
two of the four table legs, then the waggons should roll down the ramp. (Better
attach some bricks at the end of your strainght track, or the waggons will
end on the floor....)
If the waggons still stay unmoved, there is definitely something wrong with
these wheel blocks. BTW: all 8-wider builders have much heavier waggons and
noone ever reported problems like yours. So the weight cannot be the only
point...
Kind Regards,
Ben
>
> Thanks for all the responses.
>
> Regards,
> Steve Martin
> IndyLUG
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> One last hint:
> if the wheels sets are quite old and have been used for most of the time under
> heavy duty, then they might have evidently wear in their bearings.
>
> The 9V wheel blocks are using "tip bearings" (sorry I have not found the
> translation for "Spitzenlager" in
> any dictionary). I mean a bearing as used for e.g. in good mechanical clocks.
> These bearings are not made for higher loads, but their main advantage is
> their very low friction.
"needle" bearings. That is, they are just a hard metal point in a soft metal
(or in this case, hard plastic) cup. Very common in regular MR as well where
the metal is often Stainless Steel and the plastic is Delrin, a hard kind of
nylon I think.
A "spit" in english, one meaning of it anyway, is a long thin bit of land
often coming to a point that sticks out into a lake or ocean...
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > One last hint:
> > if the wheels sets are quite old and have been used for most of the time • under
> > heavy duty, then they might have evidently wear in their bearings.
> >
> > The 9V wheel blocks are using "tip bearings" (sorry I have not found the
> > translation for "Spitzenlager" in
> > any dictionary). I mean a bearing as used for e.g. in good mechanical clocks.
> > These bearings are not made for higher loads, but their main advantage is
> > their very low friction.
>
> "needle" bearings. That is, they are just a hard metal point in a soft metal
> (or in this case, hard plastic) cup. Very common in regular MR as well where
> the metal is often Stainless Steel and the plastic is Delrin, a hard kind of
> nylon I think.
Thanks Larry,
the direct back-translation of needle bearing would be "Nadellager" in German,
but Nadellager has a completely different meaning here. That is a roller
bearing with very fine (long and thin like needles) cylinders like this one:
http://www.ina.de/inaupdate/produkt/medias/images/NAMAS.gif
Regards,
Ben
>
> A "spit" in english, one meaning of it anyway, is a long thin bit of land
> often coming to a point that sticks out into a lake or ocean...
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> No, there has to be something wrong with your wheel blocks. Maybe they have
> collected lots of dust, maybe they have a quality lack....
<try a ramp, here's how>
Excellent advice. If after proper weighting, you are still struggling to get
things moving, there is a problem. Ben's test is good. Also examine
individual wheelsets. If you flick a wheel with your thumb, it should stay
spinning for at least 10's of seconds if not a whole minute (depending on
how hard you flick)
Also, check the bogie plate rotation because if the bogie plates aren't
swiveling, that will cause binding on curves, slowing things down greatly.
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > No, there has to be something wrong with your wheel blocks. Maybe they have
> > collected lots of dust, maybe they have a quality lack....
>
> <try a ramp, here's how>
>
> Excellent advice. If after proper weighting, you are still struggling to get
> things moving, there is a problem. Ben's test is good. Also examine
> individual wheelsets. If you flick a wheel with your thumb, it should stay
> spinning for at least 10's of seconds if not a whole minute (depending on
> how hard you flick)
OK, I tried the flick test on my wheels and none of them spun for 10
seconds. Not my old Metroliner wheels, not my new My Own Train wheels,
nothing. The place where my sets are stored is about 80 degrees right now
and fairly high humidity. Does that affect things?
Steve
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Steve Martin writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> >
> > > No, there has to be something wrong with your wheel blocks. Maybe they have
> > > collected lots of dust, maybe they have a quality lack....
> >
> > <try a ramp, here's how>
> >
> > Excellent advice. If after proper weighting, you are still struggling to get
> > things moving, there is a problem. Ben's test is good. Also examine
> > individual wheelsets. If you flick a wheel with your thumb, it should stay
> > spinning for at least 10's of seconds if not a whole minute (depending on
> > how hard you flick)
>
>
> OK, I tried the flick test on my wheels and none of them spun for 10
> seconds. Not my old Metroliner wheels, not my new My Own Train wheels,
> nothing. The place where my sets are stored is about 80 degrees right now
> and fairly high humidity. Does that affect things?
Let me apologise. I think I exaggerated. 10s of seconds is a bit much. I
just carried out a test with several wheelsets that I consider to be quite
free rolling (when placed on a car, that car will go many feet of straight
track if level and given a good push) and none of them go for more than 5
seconds when flicked. But they DO spin "nicely" and slow down relatively
gradually.
I have one other wheelset that is damaged and it barely spins 5 revolutions
when flicked, you can see it visibly slow down and hear noise.
How do your cars perform when pushed?
I think there still is some underlying problem here we've missed.
|
|
|
