Subject:
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The Canoe Myth of .pirates
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.pirates
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Date:
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Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:36:42 GMT
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Viewed:
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2489 times
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Warning: The below may well include a little more analysis than is really
needed...
The Canoe Myth of .pirates
Background
I’ve just completed an enjoyable few hours building my 10021 USS Constellation.
For a 1978 set, the original set contained quite a few relatively new pieces -
1x6, 1x4 and 1x3 plates for instance. I mounted the window replacement headlight
bricks backward, which seems to give a better effect than the ‘correct’ way -
and truer to the look of the original 1x1x1 windows. I’m a big fan of headlight
bricks, so the replacement doesn’t concern me particularly.
The Constellation is a great model. The gun deck guns enjoy the same spacing as
the guns on my minifig scale ships (two studs), although my ships use minifig
scale cannons. Clearly a four stud spacing would truer to scale, as well as
being more ergonomic for the crews.
So I thought about scaling the Constellation up. I knew - or at least I thought
I knew - I couldn’t go longer with standard wide hull sections than the
Misérable (6 sections) without getting the dread canoe effect, so a scaled up
Constellation hull would give me the size, but without the hassle of building a
compound curved SNOT hull. Easy.
But then I took some measurements...
The Accepted Canoe Warning .pirates.
The casual reader of .pirates has probably seen warnings about canoe building:
- From Bruce Schlickbernd on the Armada Flagship: “You can add another center section, but beyond that it starts to look like a canoe.”
- From Richard Parsons on big hulls: “At 16 studs, going beyond 4 midsections makes the ship seem too narrow (more like a canoe than a ship).”
- From Matt Morgan on the benefits of cutting hull parts (which was strangely never backed up with pics...): “I have made a few ships with 6 mid-sections they always looked like a canoe”
- From Steve Bliss on the building of a two decker: “It looks too much like a big canoe currently.”
- And from me in .loc.au about extending the Armada Flagship: “Beware building a canoe!”
And I’ve had several conversations as well as email correspondence with ship
builders about the canoeishness of long ships. When ships go beyond four hull
centre sections, they look like canoes. Accepted wisdom. My Misérable is six
centre sections and avoids the canoeish appearance because it extends beyond the
standard width with double rows of inverse 45° slopes on both sides. Accepted
wisdom, too. Of course I’d never checked the dimensions of a real frigate...
Getting the measure on the problem
As I was contemplating building a scaled up Constellation hull, doubling all
dimensions length would bring the hull to 100 studs, and the beam to 20 studs.
Sounds pretty good.
But then I glanced up at the Misérable sitting jealously with it’s topmasts
lowered on top of a nearby bookcase. A quick count confirmed my recollection
that the Mis hull was 77 studs long... So the scaled up Constellation would be
bigger.
All well so far. But the beam of the Misérable (theoretically running
dangerously close to the canoelike) is 20 studs: the same as a double sized
Constellation.
Surely, the USS Constellation is not canoelike? Well...
Vessel
| | Length
| | Beam
| | Length:Beam
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| | LEGO USS Constellation
(Excl bow dec)
| | 56 studs
50 studs
| | 10 studs
| | 5.6:1
5:1
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| | Real USS Constellation
| | 164 feet
| | 41 feet
| | 4:1
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| | Real USS Constitution
| | 175 feet
| | 43.5 feet
| | 4.02:1
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| | HMBrig Supply
| | 78 feet
| | 22 feet
| | 3.5:1
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| | HMS Sirius
| | 110 feet
| | 32 feet
| | 3.4:1
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| | HMS Victory
| | 226’6”
| | 52’6”
| | 4.3: 1
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| | HMS Indefatiguable
| | 160 feet
| | 44 feet
| | 3.6:1
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| | LEGO Black Seas Barracuda
(excl bow dec)
| | 65 studs
56 studs
| | 16 studs
| | 4.06:1
3.5:1
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| | Misérable
(excl bow dec)
| | 85 studs
77 studs
| | 20 studs
| | 4.25:1
3.85:1
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| | HMLS Intractable
(excl bow dec)
| | 55 studs
50 studs
| | 16 studs
| | 3.43:1
3.13:1
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I’ve given alternate numbers which exclude bow decoration (that part of
the stem which extends beyond the hull proper). The BSB has a lot of aft
overhang to, but I didn’t exclude that... perhaps I should have.
I tried to track down some measurements for the HMS Agamemnon too, but
without success.
So the LEGO Constellation is the most canoelike of the above vessels - real
or LEGO, and yet it doesn’t look canoelike to me.... nor have I heard it
described as canoelike.
Conclusion
Looking at the ratio’s above, if you accept the LEGO Constellation is not too
canoelike, and use a 5:1 length to beam ratio, you could safely go to 6 (and
maybe even 7) sections using standard wide hull pieces.
Hull Type
| | Centres
at 3.5:1
| | Centres
at 4.0:1
| | Centres
at 4.25:1
| | Centres
at 4.5:1
| | Centres
at 5.0:1
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| | Narrow
| | 2
| | 2.8
| | 3.1
| | 3.5
| | 4.3
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| | Narrow w/row
of inv slopes
| | 2.9
| | 3.8
| | 4.2
| | 4.6
| | 5.5
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| | Wide
| | 3.8
| | 4.8
| | 5.3
| | 5.8
| | 6.8
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| | Wide w/row
of inv slopes
| | 4.6
| | 5.8
| | 6.3
| | 6.9
| | 8
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| | Wide w/2 rows
of inv slopes
| | 5.5
| | 6.8
| | 7.4
| | 8
| | 9.3
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Note that these numbers make no allowance for overhangs fore or
aft. Nevertheless, these are scary numbers compared to what is normally used.
Maybe the canoe myth arose when ship builders where laying out the hull
sections, and constructing the middle layers of the hull. Maybe it arose
because traditional LEGO Black Seas Barracuda designs were used (with no deck)
and the ‘see through to the keel’ effect reminded people of canoes.
I know I got nervous when I laid out the six centres for the Misérable and
saw how long it looked ... and seriously considered revising the design to five.
A dimension I haven’t explored here is the vertical, either the hull or the
rigging. Looking at the Misérable now, it looks a bit too tall in the hull
for it’s length, and maybe now I now the ratios, I’ll be brave and take the
next Misérable out to eight centre sections. ;-)
I do remain convinced though that the biggest obstacle to ship building is
the rigging. Masts aren’t too much of a problem, but keeping them stable is.
The existing long ratlines aren’t tall enough for the Misérable, so they’re
not going to be tall enough for anything bigger. I think the solution may be
either joining ratlines or coming up with strong enough tops which can be used
on mast pieces in lieu of the 6x6 with clips top plate.
I think the key to building bigger vessels is to experiment a bit instead of
following the accepted wisdom. A bare six section hull may look a bit
canoelike, but once the hull is properly completed (and a deck added!) it’s
likely to look properly ship shape!
So, let’s see some bigger ships!
I’ve kept this page as an FTX document which I’ll update for other information
and comments, and post a link to in due course.
Adieu
Richie Dulin
| | Port Brique
Somewhere in the South Pacifique
| | 
| | Misérable
Building a safer South Pacifique
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: The Canoe Myth of .pirates
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| (...) wow richie, this is quite an analysis! it has been awhile since i last posted, but i just have to participate. you number analysis was quite in depth, and the conclusions were interesting. lego's hulls do lend themselves to be shaped like a (...) (21 years ago, 20-Aug-03, to lugnet.pirates, FTX)
| | | Re: The Canoe Myth of .pirates
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| (...) Hassle of... hey! That's me! ; ) I must admit, SNOTing a scale hull is a bit of a chore, though I'm trying to develop new techniques to make it more efficient. *Trying*. (...) Okay, here's where my obsessive reading of Brian Lavery et. al. (...) (21 years ago, 20-Aug-03, to lugnet.pirates)
| | | Re: The Canoe Myth of .pirates
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| (...) Words of wisdom, and you even wisely quote the artist first, who surely has a good eye for these kind of things. :-) (...) When I was at the Lego store in Anaheim just a couple of weeks ago, I looked at the Constellation in passing and I (...) (21 years ago, 21-Aug-03, to lugnet.pirates, FTX)
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