Subject:
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Re: Cheap American shot (Was: NEW Mindstorms set shown (with picture!))
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:53:54 GMT
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Viewed:
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331 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
>
>
> Christopher Weeks wrote:
>
> > "Kyle D. Jackson" wrote:
> >
> > > > Yeah, Americans are Loud, rude and blunt, but hell, last time I
> > > > checked, we pulled saved everyone's ass in WWII and without us you would
> > > > have lost WWI too.
> > > [snip]
> >
> > > Yes, the involvement of the USA in WW2 was pivotal. But there were a great
> > > number of nations involved in that conflict on "both sides". The USA was but
> > > one of them. And for each of those nations, a great many people died. Some
> > > of my relatives, some of your's, pretty much some of everybody's. Therefore,
> > > nobody won. To say so is sick!
> >
> > Hunh? We won. You, and us, and the UK, and France, and Russia, and the
> > others. We won. What do you mean? Sure people died, but that doesn't
> > change who won.
>
> There's not a lot of things that will get my "patriotic dander" up--but apparently
> the same thing gets Chris's up too. I'm a professional historian of modern
> Britain, western Europe, and modern Africa (it's a long and convoluted story
> regarding how those all got put together), so I'm often the first American/USian to
> engage in what Larry derides as "cultural relativism"--granted, to a point; I
> merely believe that the values of a given society are defined by those who live
> within that society. That's not a statement of opinion, it's a fact. We in turn
> argue over the semantics of what constitutes "society" and "within".
>
> That said, the Allies absolutely and conclusively won that war. You can say that
> there were the holy and the heinous among even the victors (George S. Patton, for
> example, was known to have spouted anti-Semitic comments even as his armies were
> liberating the survivors of the Holocaust, and Gar Alperovitz would have us damn
> James Byrnes for Hiroshima), but there's no doubting that three destructive and
> militaristic regimes began a new era in total war, and we finished it. (Note: I
> use "we" in the collective, Allied sense.)
>
> If there were no winners, why did we fight? I think about this every time I pass a
> collection jar for the World War II memorial, and I always drop in a dollar or two.
>
> > > Are we grateful?? As a Canadian, I can say yes! And I imagine many other
> > > nations agree. But to "rub it in", or state the obvious, just isn't right.
> >
> > I think that this "we saved your butt" thing is a common response to
> > feeling like the rest of the western world picks on us. For me
> > personally, I don't mind if you pick on us. I know that it's due to our
> > success and I'm not ashamed of it. That's just the way the world works.
> > I also think that telling people that we saved their butts is silly
> > because it won't help. Either they know it or they don't. Either
> > they're greatful or they aren't.
>
> That's my feeling as well. It's one of the heavier responses available when we
> perceive a similarly unfair snipe--usually in the form of a holier-than-thou
> comment by a non-American about US education, morality, work ethic, et cetera.
>
> My response to cultural arrogance is more measured, and very simple: If it looks
> like the United States has ten times the number of ignorant and thoughtless or
> uneducated people that, say, Canada or the UK has, *bear in mind that the United
> States has roughly ten times the population.* This also explains why we play
> primary cultural motor in the English-speaking world; it's sheer numbers. Why do
> people always seem to forget this vital and obvious fact?
>
> It's also helpful to point out that when people define Americans as rude and
> obnoxious, uneducated and loud, those are the only "Americans" they'll see. The
> ones like me, who acculturate and travel ourselves, learn European or African
> languages, read extensively, and respect the cultures through which we travel, are
> *never* pegged as being from the US. That's because most of the viewers have a
> preconception of the archetypical US tourist/traveler/whatever, and this becomes
> what they want to see and expect to see. People ask if I'm Canadian, Australian,
> or South African--but almost never American.
>
> > > I guess Americans should be proud that their citizens have made the ultimate
> > > sacrifice to support what they think is right. But so did a lot of other
> > > nations, my own included. To say American sacrifices were any more important
> > > than someone else's is just plain wrong.
> >
> > No one would claim that some individual US citizen's life is more
> > important than some individual Canadian's. But's let's replay the war
> > without the US contribution and then again without the Canadian
> > contribution. Do you see my point. The "we saved your butts" thing is
> > silly, but it's still correct.
>
> I'm not sure the Canadian contribution to WWII can be extricated from the British
> contribution *except* on the individual level. London called to and mobilized the
> Commonwealth (Empire, really--this was sort of a flux moment in British history);
> only South Africa seriously considered rejecting British wishes (gee, imagine
> that)--though some mandates, and even Egypt, became overtly hostile to the Allies
> during the course of the war.
>
> As for the "value" of the total contribution...see far above. It was numbers that
> made the difference, not some superior heart, courage, or spirit within any
> nationality.
>
> > > which seems to imply that he is from Germany. In
> > > that case then, did you really "save their butts"??
> >
> > No, in that case, we saved their souls.
>
> I'm not fully sure of that, the more I understand about the German academy and the
> sheer number of ex-Nazis who were retained under NATO in the rough category of
> "necessary evil." Defeat in 1945 and the trials of the Reich's architects at
> Nürnberg did, however, give them an out from culpability. Maybe the average German
> has changed, but I wonder how much the leadership has--this current flap over the
> CDU should be a powerful hint.
I'll admit that I flushed with patriotic indignation when I read Mr. Jezek's
post. As a geographer, I can, however, concur with Mr. Jezek that the American
public school system often does not equip students with an adequate
understanding of not only where places are, but the Why of What is Where.
Perhaps our position of power and relative self-sufficiency has made us an
inward-looking country. Some geographers use the term "Folk Fortress" to
describe America's location, relative to the rest of the world. In other words,
our physical geography has given us relatively secure borders against armed
invasion; from the east and west would-be invading armies have to deal with the
logistics of traveling great distances by sea and establishing shipping supply
lines. An invasion from the north would have to deal with a potentially hostile
climate, both in terms of an over-land movement, and in terms of an ocean-
crossing. And, regarding a southern invasion, an extensive arid region can pose
problems as well. I believe that our history, our ideologies (Manifest Destiny,
the Monroe Doctrine, Isolationism, etc., etc.) regarding both the colonization
of the region, and our foreign policy decisions, have influenced our culture to
the extent that we often (as a culture, and especially in terms of our public
education) view America as the center of the world, so to speak. I agree with
Mr. Jezek that the American school system could do a better job of producing
well-rounded, well-informed, students. Yes, I agree that geographic knowledge
isn't our greatest-strength, and for what it is worth, I expect that I shall do
my small part in the future to rectify that.
However, as I said, my patriotic pride burned bright when I read the post. I
must admit feeling some bitterness when jabs are thrown at us from across the
Atlantic. We certainly have many things in our history to be ashamed of, but
I'd speculate that if we open our respective history books, neither America, nor
England, nor any other country will read far before we come across skeletons in
our closets. Americans can certainly be given some well-deserved criticism, and
I'd wager that we would do well to heed the constructive advice to temper our
outspoken pride and brash behavior. Point well taken. But, these
generalizations about Stupid Americans are guilty of the same ignorance that
they mean to accuse us of. I've found that when I examine the stereotypes that
I hold toward other people, toward other cultures, toward other nations, I am
often suprised by how wrong I have been. Perhaps a dash of humility on that
side of the Atlantic would be in order as well.
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