Subject:
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Re: Cheap American shot (Was: NEW Mindstorms set shown (with picture!))
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:06:09 GMT
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Viewed:
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266 times
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Christopher Weeks wrote:
> "Kyle D. Jackson" wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, Americans are Loud, rude and blunt, but hell, last time I
> > > checked, we pulled saved everyone's ass in WWII and without us you would
> > > have lost WWI too.
> > [snip]
>
> > Yes, the involvement of the USA in WW2 was pivotal. But there were a great
> > number of nations involved in that conflict on "both sides". The USA was but
> > one of them. And for each of those nations, a great many people died. Some
> > of my relatives, some of your's, pretty much some of everybody's. Therefore,
> > nobody won. To say so is sick!
>
> Hunh? We won. You, and us, and the UK, and France, and Russia, and the
> others. We won. What do you mean? Sure people died, but that doesn't
> change who won.
There's not a lot of things that will get my "patriotic dander" up--but apparently
the same thing gets Chris's up too. I'm a professional historian of modern
Britain, western Europe, and modern Africa (it's a long and convoluted story
regarding how those all got put together), so I'm often the first American/USian to
engage in what Larry derides as "cultural relativism"--granted, to a point; I
merely believe that the values of a given society are defined by those who live
within that society. That's not a statement of opinion, it's a fact. We in turn
argue over the semantics of what constitutes "society" and "within".
That said, the Allies absolutely and conclusively won that war. You can say that
there were the holy and the heinous among even the victors (George S. Patton, for
example, was known to have spouted anti-Semitic comments even as his armies were
liberating the survivors of the Holocaust, and Gar Alperovitz would have us damn
James Byrnes for Hiroshima), but there's no doubting that three destructive and
militaristic regimes began a new era in total war, and we finished it. (Note: I
use "we" in the collective, Allied sense.)
If there were no winners, why did we fight? I think about this every time I pass a
collection jar for the World War II memorial, and I always drop in a dollar or two.
> > Are we grateful?? As a Canadian, I can say yes! And I imagine many other
> > nations agree. But to "rub it in", or state the obvious, just isn't right.
>
> I think that this "we saved your butt" thing is a common response to
> feeling like the rest of the western world picks on us. For me
> personally, I don't mind if you pick on us. I know that it's due to our
> success and I'm not ashamed of it. That's just the way the world works.
> I also think that telling people that we saved their butts is silly
> because it won't help. Either they know it or they don't. Either
> they're greatful or they aren't.
That's my feeling as well. It's one of the heavier responses available when we
perceive a similarly unfair snipe--usually in the form of a holier-than-thou
comment by a non-American about US education, morality, work ethic, et cetera.
My response to cultural arrogance is more measured, and very simple: If it looks
like the United States has ten times the number of ignorant and thoughtless or
uneducated people that, say, Canada or the UK has, *bear in mind that the United
States has roughly ten times the population.* This also explains why we play
primary cultural motor in the English-speaking world; it's sheer numbers. Why do
people always seem to forget this vital and obvious fact?
It's also helpful to point out that when people define Americans as rude and
obnoxious, uneducated and loud, those are the only "Americans" they'll see. The
ones like me, who acculturate and travel ourselves, learn European or African
languages, read extensively, and respect the cultures through which we travel, are
*never* pegged as being from the US. That's because most of the viewers have a
preconception of the archetypical US tourist/traveler/whatever, and this becomes
what they want to see and expect to see. People ask if I'm Canadian, Australian,
or South African--but almost never American.
> > I guess Americans should be proud that their citizens have made the ultimate
> > sacrifice to support what they think is right. But so did a lot of other
> > nations, my own included. To say American sacrifices were any more important
> > than someone else's is just plain wrong.
>
> No one would claim that some individual US citizen's life is more
> important than some individual Canadian's. But's let's replay the war
> without the US contribution and then again without the Canadian
> contribution. Do you see my point. The "we saved your butts" thing is
> silly, but it's still correct.
I'm not sure the Canadian contribution to WWII can be extricated from the British
contribution *except* on the individual level. London called to and mobilized the
Commonwealth (Empire, really--this was sort of a flux moment in British history);
only South Africa seriously considered rejecting British wishes (gee, imagine
that)--though some mandates, and even Egypt, became overtly hostile to the Allies
during the course of the war.
As for the "value" of the total contribution...see far above. It was numbers that
made the difference, not some superior heart, courage, or spirit within any
nationality.
> > which seems to imply that he is from Germany. In
> > that case then, did you really "save their butts"??
>
> No, in that case, we saved their souls.
I'm not fully sure of that, the more I understand about the German academy and the
sheer number of ex-Nazis who were retained under NATO in the rough category of
"necessary evil." Defeat in 1945 and the trials of the Reich's architects at
Nürnberg did, however, give them an out from culpability. Maybe the average German
has changed, but I wonder how much the leadership has--this current flap over the
CDU should be a powerful hint.
best
Lindsay
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