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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
>
> Ack, I can't believe I didn't set groups right. I didn't want this
> hiding in .pt alone. :D
Thnx.
> In lugnet.loc.pt, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > In lugnet.loc.pt, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
> > >
> > > > Examples of Arab influence are all but scarce around here. And I'd even risk
> > > > saying that the New World was colonized by europeans thanks to an arab
> > > > invention: the lateen sail, said so because of the use the Southern European
> > > > nations made of it. And it is arguable that England or France would send
> > > > expeditions due West if Spain and Portugal hadn't done it first...
> >
> > It's arguable that Portugal had very little interest in going
> > West at any time (before Napoleon came around, of course :D ).
*We* did not run west... the *queen* did - that marked the beggining of
tourism in Brazil. The rest of the population had to stay and withstand the
fight, with some help from the Brits (ah, Wellington... fascinating
character) we drove 'em out.
But I see your point; however, I slightly disagree: even though the main
goal was not to the West itself, the Atlantic Islands were very needed as
sources of cereals by the mid 15th Century (along with portuguese North
Morrocco).
So the "West option" wasn't totally discarded from the start.
> > Until very nearly the end of the 17th century, the Americas
> > were more "obstacle" than anything else (Spain's dumb-luck find
> > in Mesoamerica notwithstanding). The Portuguese had the idea of
> > going around Africa to get to the real goal--South and East Asia--
> > and, in fact, da Gama proved them right.
Oh, yeah!! :-)
> > IIRC the whole Brazil
> > enterprise was almost an afterthought by comparison, and it never
> > really turned a profit but rather ate Portuguese lives and fortunes
> > whole. Only after independence did Brazil really become a fiscally
> > lucrative venture. (D'oh!)
Again, I disagree. The gold and diamonds mined in Brazil in the late 17th /
early 18th centuries were used to build many palaces and public works in
Portugal, essentially around Lisbon. Besides, sugar and coffee were already
export crops prior to that.
Maybe the reason for an inadeqate exploitation of brazilian resources in the
colonial age was the lack of free manpower - the portuguese population was
(and is, for that matter) very scarce. No settlers could be spared without
endangering the life of the metropolis itself.
On the contrary, India and China *had* the manpower, they just needed the
traders (and then again maybe not...). So it was easier to exploit such
resources, compared to Brazil.
> > Spain, on the other hand, was fairly poor. It almost broke 'em
> > just to send the three wee cutters with Cristoforo Colombo.
Yes, I know something about the queen selling the jewels to pay for the
ships... but on the long run she won the jackpot!
> > > Well noted on the arab influences, but the lateen sail was supplanted by the
> > > square-rigged sail for transatlantic voyages fairly quickly, though it
> > > remained popular in the Mediterranean for many centuries. Columbus' caravel
> > > Nina was converted to a square rig, for example, though much early Spanish
> > > and Portugese exploration was with lateen-rigged caravels. There is some
> > > evidence that the Romans may have used lateen sails, though what I have seen
> > > is far from conclusive.
> >
> > But the square-rig used for transatlantic sailing was a redesign
> > of the old square-rig to give it the lateen's properties for tacking
> > purposes. The sternpost rudder, the "ship hull", all came later and
> > owe their innovation to borrowing.
> >
> > But even so, European ships were pretty weakly made and poorly
> > manned until the 18th century. If you want to see the truly scary
> > monstrous things the Chinese were putting on the water as early as
> > the *fourteenth* century, take a look at this:
> >
> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html
> >
> > They didn't borrow much from outside China because, well, they
> > just plain didn't need to. The real triumph of European ship-
> > building was the European propensity to sponge *everything* up
> > from around the world and apply it in new and innovative ways.
> > They *had* to, given their fear of the alternative.
Ah, the chinese... the Empire of the Middle has influenced shipbuilding in
Portuguese Macau with the "Lorcha" kind of ship. I was able to see one in
Lisbon in '98, it was pretty impressive and sturdy.
> > > Let's not forget 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc.
> > > :-)
> >
> > We call those Arabic numerals, but they're actually a Hindi
> > mathematical creation that the West borrowed via the Muslim
> > world. The concept "zero" is completely Indian in origin.
I guess I mentioned that on this thread somewhere... anyway, it is accurate
(well, that's your job, ain't it? ;-)
Pedro
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