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Subject: 
Re: What we can do... (my 2 cents)
Newsgroups: 
lugnet.off-topic.debate
Date: 
Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:52:18 GMT
Viewed: 
549 times
  
   Ack, I can't believe I didn't set groups right.  I didn't want this
   hiding in .pt alone.  :D

In lugnet.loc.pt, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
In lugnet.loc.pt, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:

Examples of Arab influence are all but scarce around here. And I'd even risk
saying that the New World was colonized by europeans thanks to an arab
invention: the lateen sail, said so because of the use the Southern European
nations made of it. And it is arguable that England or France would send
expeditions due West if Spain and Portugal hadn't done it first...

  It's arguable that Portugal had very little interest in going
  West at any time (before Napoleon came around, of course :D ).
  Until very nearly the end of the 17th century, the Americas
  were more "obstacle" than anything else (Spain's dumb-luck find
  in Mesoamerica notwithstanding).  The Portuguese had the idea of
  going around Africa to get to the real goal--South and East Asia--
  and, in fact, da Gama proved them right.  IIRC the whole Brazil
  enterprise was almost an afterthought by comparison, and it never
  really turned a profit but rather ate Portuguese lives and fortunes
  whole.  Only after independence did Brazil really become a fiscally
  lucrative venture.  (D'oh!)

  Spain, on the other hand, was fairly poor.  It almost broke 'em
  just to send the three wee cutters with Cristoforo Colombo.

Well noted on the arab influences, but the lateen sail was supplanted by the
square-rigged sail for transatlantic voyages fairly quickly, though it
remained popular in the Mediterranean for many centuries.  Columbus' caravel
Nina was converted to a square rig, for example, though much early Spanish
and Portugese exploration was with lateen-rigged caravels.  There is some
evidence that the Romans may have used lateen sails, though what I have seen
is far from conclusive.

  But the square-rig used for transatlantic sailing was a redesign
  of the old square-rig to give it the lateen's properties for tacking
  purposes.  The sternpost rudder, the "ship hull", all came later and
  owe their innovation to borrowing.

  But even so, European ships were pretty weakly made and poorly
  manned until the 18th century.  If you want to see the truly scary
  monstrous things the Chinese were putting on the water as early as
  the *fourteenth* century, take a look at this:

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html

  They didn't borrow much from outside China because, well, they
  just plain didn't need to.  The real triumph of European ship-
  building was the European propensity to sponge *everything* up
  from around the world and apply it in new and innovative ways.
  They *had* to, given their fear of the alternative.

Let's not forget 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc.
:-)

  We call those Arabic numerals, but they're actually a Hindi
  mathematical creation that the West borrowed via the Muslim
  world.  The concept "zero" is completely Indian in origin.

  best

  LFB



Message has 1 Reply:
  Re: What we can do... (my 2 cents)
 
(...) Thnx. (...) *We* did not run west... the *queen* did - that marked the beggining of tourism in Brazil. The rest of the population had to stay and withstand the fight, with some help from the Brits (ah, Wellington... fascinating character) we (...) (23 years ago, 29-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.loc.pt)

Message is in Reply To:
  Re: What we can do... (my 2 cents)
 
(...) It's arguable that Portugal had very little interest in going West at any time (before Napoleon came around, of course :D ). Until very nearly the end of the 17th century, the Americas were more "obstacle" than anything else (Spain's dumb-luck (...) (23 years ago, 29-Sep-01, to lugnet.loc.pt)

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