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<snipped your statement> Well said, Kirby! Thanks. Dan (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) The only thing I'd add to that is that it's not black & white - some creatures have what zoologists call "hierarchys" within groups (including the aforementioned lion). This, as I see it, is a sort of set of "rights" given to those higher up (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Can you give an example here? I think it's rather cold and callous to talk about unlimited rights to reproduce without regard to the fact that it's not practically possible to allow such rights to exist, nad that you're setting false (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough. I agree that rights aren't "what you are capable of enforcing". That's too amoral. Rights derive from fundamentals about people (and other reasoning moral beings should some be constructed or discovered in (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I want to leave people out of this at least for a bit. While your point is valid, it is not necessarily helping the question get any clearer. Just stick to two different species of bacteria, interacting in a natural environment with no people (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | someone has to say it...
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With regards to some of the replys in the "sexism" debate... Do you really think that choosing to raise a family is tatamount to inflicting a prohibitive "medical condition" on ones self? Is a persons only purpose in life to work for a corporate (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I think that the notion of rights is wholly a construct of man. You know you have a right when the other humans around you generally agree that you do and respect that right. The rights of people are not innate and they have been and will (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) No, I wouldn't say it's a directive force. Paraphrasing what you said, the results speak for themselves after the fact. (...) Sloppy, eh? Yeah, I guess it can look that way sometimes. When you say a gene is lost, you mean that it is not passed (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I'm not sure if you meant it this way, or were just going quickly, but I think that sounds like a circular argument and maybe anthropomorphic. "Bad" genes are only defined after the fact because they failed to propogate. It sounds like you are (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I think "rights" came along after bouts of give and take, either within nature or within society, until equilibrium (long or short term) was achieved. I think all "rights" thus far in human society were preceeded by violence until it became so (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) <snipped all the rest because I'm not disagreeing with it> I'm afraid I am still "stuck" on rights. (and I've been stuck on them before) What are rights? How do you know if you have them? Let's talk about organisms other than man for a bit. (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) Yes, I know what you mean but I am forced to maintain that in the basic biological sense all living beings have the natural right of reproduction, whether they are fit as a fiddle or severely genetically abnormal or diseased. BUT here's the (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) Ability, not right, wouldn't you agree? See below. (...) Evolution in action, as they say. <snip> I snipped the human perspective because I agree with your statements pointing out that it's not always a good idea for folks not prepared or for (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I guess we just have different views on this subject, that's all. But I don't think "punishment" is the appropriate word here and neither is "reward." Either way, so long as we agree that there are differing views to this subject then it makes (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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Speaking strictly in a biological sense, all living beings have the natural right of reproduction. The presence of sex organs and sex hormones is proof enough that organisms are here to thrive and repopulate. Reproduction is a natural, hard-wired (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) Wow those are long lines. OK, Tom. I personally have been in jobs that I hated and jobs that I liked. This may be quibbling with words but I don't see benefits or the lack of them as "punishment". Punishment is typically something meted out to (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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Dan: I know you hate it when I quote you out of context but I was just wondering, can you elaborate more on whether a person has a "right to reproduce"? That is, do people have the right to have kids no matter what, or are there preconditions that (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) Extremely, or I wouldn't be there. I could take a higher paying job elsewhere, but I LIKE my job, and that is very important to me. You don't find very many people that stick in Tech Support for 5 years before burning out. Whether you like (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) You didn't. I didn't say you did. However. You keep stating what seems to be an exception clause that it has to do with choice, when in fact, I think you don't mean that: "they CHOSE to have kids, and rewarding them for it/punishing others for (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I understood your point perfectly the first time. My concern is the attitude about staying pregnant. I think if a woman has to face loss of pay and possible loss of her job if she chooses to have a child then our society has some serious moral (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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