Subject:
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Re: Ldraw Logo on Studs
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.cad
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Date:
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Sat, 20 Apr 2002 06:08:35 GMT
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Viewed:
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495 times
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In lugnet.cad, Richard Marchetti writes:
> Hey Y'all:
>
> After seeing Hafner's renders of his new Duplo bricks I became intrigued by
> the fact that the bricks have studs that read "Ldraw" on them. So I
> searched back and found two threads discussing the issue. Now while I don't
> expect to change anyone's mind about how the issue has been decided, I think
> the decision arrived at may have been the wrong one.
>
> While Ldraw and all of the related tools are intended to visualize
> everyone's favorite brand of toy construction bricks, they are not the thing
> itself -- or put another way: virtual bricks are not the same as real
> bricks. Indeed, there are Ldraw compatible files available to render
> Knex-like elements, Mega Bloks-like elements, and possibly other
> construction toy/clone-like elements.
Yes this is TRUE, but LDRAW's (the organization) POLICY is to NEVER EVER
create, post, or distribute any other pieces other than Offical LEGO parts!
I don't think this policy is EVER going to change for a number of reason;
the top two IMO being: 1) most LDraw users don't WANT to use non-LEGO parts,
and 2) in keeping with the spirt of the original creator the organization is
attempting to document ALL the LEGO parts with the highest quality possible
per piece.
> Soon, there may even be hybrid
> elements being developed, or in other instances elements for which there are
> no commercial precedents -- original creations in the Ldraw format. Ldraw is
> a thing very uniquely itself and I don't think there is anyone, or any
> corporation, that can say even as little as "boo" about it.
>
> Commercial construction toy companies may or may not have their own CAD
> render software, but I am going to assume it is not Ldraw in any case. If
> they happen to have some kind of proprietary software -- well, fine -- I
> expect we would not be allowed to use it and we might even see some
> litigation over the matter if anyone did try to use it.
LEGO has two type of parts library that we KNOW of: 1) a manufacturing parts
library. Thes files are used to phsyically create the bricks and from what
we know this library represents the parts in a very very detailed way. The
2nd library of parts is used to create the building instructions. This
library is much more tolerant of each part (aka they don't have to be 100%
to the 10th of a millimeter correct).
You are right, however, that we (the LDraw) community CAN NEVER expect to be
allowed to use these library. Well, perhaps, the library used for building
instructions may one day become avaliable to use but I would not hold my
breath. The manufacturing one WILL NEVER BE MADE AVALIABLE!
> But Ldraw is not
> proprietary. Nor was it created for a commercial usage. TLC has its CAD
> software, and we have our own -- created by, supported by, used by, and
> owned by the Ldraw user community.
Hum... Proprietray? Ldraw or the library of parts? The original parts
library IS NOT FREEWARE! It's copyrighted by the original author. Since he
has passed away his estate owns the copyright to the original parts. ALL
the parts created since then are COPYRIGHT of the individual authors! I'm
not sure if the original DOS ldraw.exe editor is copyright? I would image
it is, but I'm not sure anyone still uses it so not point in discussing it.
> Further, I can't see that there are any issues concerning rights to
> copyright, trademark, or even a probably nonexistent rights of publicity if
> Ldraw decides NOT to use the "Lego" logo. Whereas alternatively, if Ldraw
> DOES choose to officially sanction the use of the Lego logo, as it
> apparently has at the behest of TLC's attorneys, it may be setting a
> dangerous precedent.
Ldraw DOES NOT put the 'lego' logo on your model. I believe that LDview and
L3PAO both provide the user with the option of putting this logo. So it is
the individual users that decides to put the logo or not. Most rendeing
images actually DO NOT have the LEGO logo on them. This is probably becuase
you need to have the highest level of quality setting in POV-Ray to get the
logo and the time it takes to render at the highest level is NOT worth it.
If nothing else, EVERY instance of use of the Lego
> logo will be subject to possible review and possible sanction (penalty) from
> TLC. Isn't that giving them a little to much say in how things are done,
> or how they might progress? These virtual bricks do not belong to anyone,
> but more especially they do not belong to TLC. Personally, I don't at all
> like the idea that any Ldraw activities are being "allowed" by the leave of
> The Lego Company -- that's just not the correct spirit of things Ldraw-wise.
This is were the fine line is at. LEGO (the company) has left us alone for
the most part because the majority of us create, render, and post our images
and that is it. The new area that has popped up in the recent years is the
MOC market. So far MOC market sellers have been okay so long as they don't
display a LEGO logo on their products. From what I can see as long as a
buyer knows that a MOC and it's instructions (where ldraw application plays
a part in) are NOT seem a coming from the lego company all has been okay.
The only problem that I know of where LEGO said NO was at brickswest 2002
were orders were going to be taken to have the LEGO Trains 1981-2001 Poster
found here: http://news.lugnet.com/trains/ done by Kinkos in poster size.
The cost to the people at brickswest was going to be the cost of production
at kinkos and nothing else. Lego laywers said NO. I'm not sure what all
the reason were but what I can think of is 1) The word LEGO is on the poster
and 2) the poster if done by kinkos (or any other printing service) LOOKS
VERY MUCH LIKE AN OFFICAL POSTER! You can, off course, download the poster
file and take it YOURSELF to kinkos to print it poster size. You just can't
sell it. Yes, yes I know that the stuff at brickswest was going to be at
cost so NO PROFIT would of come of it but the suits said NO!
> In the instance of Brickfest where apparently a banner was hung with an
> Ldraw logo bearing "Lego" marked studs, I think that should have been
> considered a favor to TLC but not something that should have been in any way
> considered to be required of Ldraw.org. I can well see that in the spirit
> of cooperation members of Ldraw.org thought "Sure, why not? We give them
> 'Lego' marked studs, they give us a venue to discuss Ldraw tools." So
> please undestand that I am not really questioning that decision as such,
> although it is a related issue. What I am questioning more specifically is
> the use of the "Lego" logo in user created Ldraw tools -- particularly in
> tools like L3PAO.
>
> That L3PAO should have been designed such that it renders the "Lego" logo
> more or less automatically is causing hundreds if not thousands of persons
> to infringe the Trademark rights of TLC without even giving it much thought.
Again L3PAO DOES NOT do it automatically, a user MUST request a level 3 output.
If you have done any POV rendered work you would know that most people use
level 2.
> But in reality, Ldraw bricks have nothing to do with TLC at all. In fact,
> TLC does make commercially available CAD products so I am amazed that they
> haven't complained of this feature in L3PAO -- except that they may have
> motive. That motive may simply be that they are at the moment considering
> L3PAO "Lego" rendered studs a kind of free advertising. If they were to
> change their minds about this, they could claim infringement of the use of
> their trademarked logo at any time...
NOT likely to happen for people posting, or making their own images. This
MAY only become an issue for something trying to SELL a POSTER, building
instructions, or a MOC set.
> Even if one rejects all of the above for one reason or another -- I can't
> see why Ldraw.org is so willing to give up this GREAT opportunity to brand
> their own name upon bricks virtual. Why are they giving away the
> opportunity to brand Ldraw for free?
LDraw is currenlty attemtpting for form itself into an OFFICAL ORGANIZATION.
The estate of the original creator of LDraw can at ANY TIME remove ldraw
from the public (not likely to happen) but can happen. The issue above
(lego logo on studs) is NOT a high priority right now nor do I think it
every will be due to LDRAW (the origanization)'s policy. WE WILL ONLY MAKE
LEGO BRICKS!!!!!!!
AGAIN WE WILL ONLY MAKE LEGO BRICKS!!!!!!
-AHui
> Some things to think about perhaps?
>
> -- Hop-Frog
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Ldraw Logo on Studs
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| (...) There was a recent post about creating a links page for non-standard uses of the LDraw format for clones and knex stuff: (URL) while they aren't proposing to distribute the files themselves, I don't see quite the vehemence implied by the (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-02, to lugnet.cad)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Ldraw Logo on Studs
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| Hey Y'all: After seeing Hafner's renders of his new Duplo bricks I became intrigued by the fact that the bricks have studs that read "Ldraw" on them. So I searched back and found two threads discussing the issue. Now while I don't expect to change (...) (22 years ago, 20-Apr-02, to lugnet.cad)
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