Subject:
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Re: Are humans animals? Are humans MORE than animals?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:45:24 GMT
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Viewed:
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262 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> Maybe I missed it, but what's free will? That's never made sense to me. I
> don't really believe in what I think it is.
I think it the freedom to exert some control over how you biochemically react
to stimuli. The opposite is to assume we're part of a complex chemical
reaction racing forward into the future and what we do, as a product of that
reaction, doesn't matter since it is inevitable. All my logic suggests the
latter is true, that is that we have no free will and that it's all a farce,
but I see no benefit in accepting that.
> Is it (in this case) taken to mean
> a transgression above instinct? I'll comment on why I disagree with that later
> anyway...
It sounds like this to me too, but I'm interested to hear anyone else's
opinions.
> Ok, I'll have to disagree. (who gets the square?)
>
> 1. The soul - Nah. You couldn't convince me no matter how hard you tried that
> humans have a soul AND that animals don't. To me, that's laughable.
Agreed. To whatever extent the idea of a soul _feels_ plausible it is
plausible for other critters too, at least many of them. I guess it would
depend on the origin of soul...humans only makes perfect sense from the
Christian mythos.
> 2. Ability to reason - Nah. Animals have this too. Not as good as humans have
> it, but they've got it. And the further down you go (something like from
Clearly.
> humans to monkeys to dogs to octopuses to birds to worms to trees to
> bacteria), the less 'reasoning' power there is. I don't think it's safe,
Um..I think if you get far enough, you do get to an empty capacity for
reasoning. Bacteria simply react in a chemical/phyisical sense.
> 3. Free will - Nah. Humans react due to instinct just as much as animals.
Depends. I beleive we do have an increased capacity to ignore our instincts.
We have them, but we have more ability to see reasons that they might not
always serve us best, and as a result, we build other ways of dealing with
situations.
> ...the act of thinking BECOMES instinctive.
I disagree. There is no such thing as becomming instinctive. If it becomes
that way, then you are mistaking reactive for instinctive. It may be that
thinking is instinctive, but I would more say that problem solving is
instinctive, but I don't think it becomes instinctive.
> As for the eating other creatures thing-- here's my logic. It is
> 'immoral' to kill anything for any purpose...the LESS immoral the
> killing of the other being, the MORE moral the overall act becomes.
>
> Hence, by my "feel" of morality, it is more moral to kill plants to live than
> to kill humans to live.
So given your rules of morality, do you (or we) have any responsibility to be
as moral as possible without destroying yourself?
> And that's the tough part, I think. Drawing the line at where it
> *feels* immoral to kill something for eating it becomes the line at
> which it *does* become immoral; and that 'line' is difficult to find.
> But now that gets into a definition of morality, and I hope I've given
> enough to chew on without delving into that...
But the nature of morality is the central issue in some ways. One thing that
is uncomfortable for many people is the idea that morality is just a feeling
and thus is different from person to person. I think that many people would
say that the actualization of (im)moral behavior varies from person to person,
but that morality is immutable.
Personally, I waver. I feel and think different things. I feel very moral --
as mentioned previously I enjoy taking the moral high ground -- but I also
think that morals are just made up ideas (like the ten commandments) to keep
society in line and productive.
Chris
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