Subject:
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Re: Are humans animals? Are humans MORE than animals?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:28:42 GMT
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Viewed:
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265 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> Yes, Yes...
>
> That hunting/eating/cockfighting thread is huge and hard to navigate.
Yup, sorry. It has basically imploded due to the weight and complexity.
> However Dave Schuler said this:
>
> " If you can produce an animal that generally demonstrates free will, I won't
> eat it. "
>
> which I think is the crux.
OK, I happen to disagree...maybe...but I'll play along.
> I've been watching for a while and I sense some
> thrashing and some hostility. Play nice, people!
I have been frustrated, but didn't think I was hostile. If I'm wrong, I
apologize to the victim(s). OTOH, I'm not sure how to tell you that you're
evil without getting on some peoples' nerves. I used to breed and raise show
rats and was on a couple rat-themed mailing lists and tried to explain it to
them too. It went something like this (and this isn't directed at anyone here
in particular):
You belive things that I disagree with. Strongly. So much, that I think your
actions are, to whatever extent this is meaningful, evil. I understand that it
is because you were raised by wolves, and I don't fully fault you. And, more
importantly, just because I think that you are grievously wrong, doesn't mean
that I can't get along with you in a civil conversation. We might even be
friends in the real world.
Most people thought it was just arrogant. But I got a couple who thought it
was interesting and thanked me, for whatever that's worth. In any case, that
is the context in which my claims of righteousness should be taken. I guess I
don't think that evil is as bad as most people do.
> What that transcendence is, is debatable. Christians will say it's the soul. I
> say its the ability to reason and to exhibit free will (with the implications
> of being able to manipulate the environment instead of reacting to it.) since
> I don't hold with the existence of a soul.
I was in part waiting for a definition of free will.
> I am starting to have second thoughts about pigs from what I hear but I am
> pretty safe eating cows and chickens as far as I am concerned. They are
> SToopid.
Is it a question of morality that dictates not eating certain animals
(dolphins, pigs, humans), or something else? What about the fact that the
ancestors of cows were pretty wiley, but we conquored them and bred them into
udder stupidity? ;-) Is that moral action? Does it have any bearing on how
you should treat them today? (I don't have much of a stance, it just occurred
to me.) But if it was an OK thing to do, wouldn't it also be an OK thing to do
to people?
> Deer? Deer are just big rats and I have no qualms about eating them either.
Rats aren't exactly stupid. I have three rats right now (though one is nearing
her expiration date) and I could demonstrate intelligence that I think would
surprise you.
> To me animalness means reacting to stimuli based on programming. That's what
> deer do. I think you can very well explain why they eat apples instead of
> poison ivy, they are programmed to eat good things
We are programmed to eat good things in _exactly_ the same way. If evidence of
them making a choice like that isn't evidence of the ability to reason and
exhibit free will, then what is? What if deer can solve some kinds of puzzles
in order to get to a place where there is better food? What if they expend
more energy than they can make up by getting to that food? And, by the way, I
think it might have been taken wrong when I originally wrote it, but poison ivy
is a perfectly normal food plant for deer. I have watched them eat it. If the
apple bark and leaves (in my case we don't have apples yet) weren't there, then
they would be happy enough eating various woodland leaves instead.
> and programmed with a
> threat/benefit evaluation mechanism to decide that when it's guarded by wolves
> it's a bad bet.
Just like we are, or different? I think they can look at the
wolf-orchard-compound and decide to stay away. I would too. Why do you assume
the cognitive process is so different?
> Transcending animalness means breaking out of the programming and becoming
> self actualized. We got lucky somehow and we did. I think it's because of
> connections in our brain and the density of them, and the number extra beyond
> what is needed to handle autonomous and instinctive stuff... I fondly believe
> that if we can reproduce the connection density/count we might get lucky and
> get a self aware computer.
Or other self-aware species? Can we "uplift" racoons? If we can, and if
they are best bet for doing so, does that effect the morality of how we treat
them at all?
> Wishful thinking, no proof for it, but fun to speculate about.
Agreed. And I think it's a logical outcome of technology. Prepare for the
singularity!
> Note that you can connect my stance on eating dolphins and my stance on
> abortion quite easily. I don't support abortion after the first trimester
> except in "choose the mother or the child, you can't have both" situations,
> because I think there's a chance that a 4 month old fetus is exhibiting free
> will (I think the line REALLY is more around 5 or 6, but I want to be safe).
I suspect that the 'value' of a human baby, in utero or post birth, is mostly
potential. I think that an average adult cat is smarter and more knowledgeable
than a three-month old human.
> In those "choose" situations I tend to choose the mother unless the mother
> herself chooses the fetus, although getting into whether a fetus is worth more
> than a mother is a bad place to go discussion wise.
A friend of a co-worker chose to save the baby and let the mother die...she was
unconcious and unable to cast a vote, they were in Europe, and had no time to
consult other family. The woman's blood family was distraught about the
choice made by their son in law. Duh!
Chris
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