Subject:
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Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:21:39 GMT
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Viewed:
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1655 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> Bill, you're falling into the trap of quoting from scripture as if it
> were authoritative again. It is to you, we grant that, but it's not
> authoritative to me.
It's not a "trap" for me. You're the one who seems to have a problem with it.
The fact that someone doesn't *want* to believe it doesn't diminish it's
authority. The bible IS my standard, your mind is yours. No offense but the
bible has been around a lot longer. Also you cannot "prove", by your own
standard, that your mind has the ability to produce rational thought(no insult
intended, just for the sake of argument) - there is "no evidence that can be
tested to back it up". You seem to be more reacting against christianity than
in favor of anything.
>
> Bill Farkas wrote:
> >
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Erik Olson writes:
> > > NOT ONE OF YOU knows if you're saved. It's ALL
> >
> > Not true. That's your opinion, on what authority do you base it?
>
> Trot out someone who's saved, then. Not someone who THINKs he is, or
> even KNOWS he is, but one who actually IS. That person needs to have
> survived the trumps of doom and come back to tell about it. Can't be
> done as they haven't happened yet.
You're the only one requiring such an unreasonable standard of proof, the bible
doesn't set this standard. You yourself can't even meet this standard because
you are unable to prove it false; and the burden of proof is with you to prove
a negative. The bible says we are saved now, there's no need for salvation
then.
And it has happened many times(i.e. someone coming back to "tell"[your word -
but wouldn't that be a witnesses statement] about it), starting with Jesus
Himself. I have an uncle who was pronounced dead, the entire family prayed for
him and he was actually "resurrected" (and I'm not Pentecostal - not that
there's anything wrong with them - it's just to say that my theology hasn't
predisposed me to this), he lived for two more weeks and gave specific messages
from the One he called God to many others. There are hundreds of eyewitnesses
to this - but you don't seem to accept witness testimony as evidence for some
strange reason. What does that mean about our entire justice system? How does
one have a trial in Libertopia?
> Everyone else is just listening to
> voices in their head telling them they are saved with no evidence that
> can be tested to back it up.
It is true that Christianity is a matter of faith, there's no denying that, but
so is your atheism. I have come to know God in such a way that the question of
whether He exists or not is not an issue with me anymore - everything else I
accept by faith - but that He exists I know first hand. No one can tell John
Glenn that the moon landing was a hoax, he was there and saw it with his own
eyes - it can't be proven according to your standards, but he knows it really
happened. I have never "seen" or even been told the name of my biological
father, but I know he exists.
I was not raised in a christian home. My family was very religion-neutral, it
was never brought up. I'm not following something that was taught to me as a
child that I'm too foolish to question or think for myself. As a teenager I was
actively pursuing a destructive lifestyle when, at age 19, God interjected
Himself into my life. I wasn't even looking for Him. I was running full speed
in the opposite direction. He sought me. The bible says that no one can come to
the father except he be drawn. I didn't come seeking relief for guilt - I
didn't have any. I came because I knew it was true and have since found Him to
be very active in my life. Subjective? Yes. Yet no less true than any account
from your own life that I personally can't verify.
>
> > > hair-
> > > splitting. Nobody comes back from death to answer that question. It's • whatever
> >
> > Jesus did just that,
>
> According to unverifiable eyewitness accounts by witnesses who stood to
> benefit (or so they thought) from sticking to that story.
What did they benefit? They died poor having been mocked, hunted and ridiculed.
None of them ever sought personal gain or recognition. They helped people
asking nothing in return. Paul employed himself in a trade to avoid such
claims. There are plenty of supporting Roman documents that verify the New
Testament account. Eyewitnesses are not unreliable. There is plenty of evidence
to support the story as told in the New Testament (re: Josh McDowell and
others).
>
> > and continues to answer that very question all the time.
>
> > Christianity and the other religions, when properly practiced, have done • more
> > to better mankind than any atheistic philosophy ever has.
>
> "Socialism, when properly practiced, has done more to better mankind
> than any capitalistic philosophy ever has... and by the way, overlook
> all the actual examples such as the SovUnion or the ChiComs because they
> weren't getting it right..."
The only thing Socialism has ever produced is mediocrity. What examples do you
offer. Canada, France, England, what? Their all going bankrupt. Have
you seen the state of medical care in these countries? That's why everyone
wants to come here. I've experienced it personally in two of the three
mentioned above and in three others. How 'bout prices in these countries.
Socialism is a failed experiment. The pilgrims tried it and found it not to
work. Most (not all) of the greatest accomplishments in history have come from
this free capitalist country. You don't think corruption pervades socialism?! A
lazy people relies on government to provide for them, socialism destroys the
human will much like welfare does.
>
> Sound familiar?
>
> Christianity *can't* be properly practiced, and further, if it could, it
> would be evil. Read what E is saying about Vacation Bible School. Talk
> about pernicious. Your god is unjust as I've demonstrated already, and
> your moral code is flawed.
Opinion. Again you can't make the aberrant the norm. As I've said, if it goes
against Christian teachings is it Christian?
>
> > Christianity is about *release* from guilt.
>
> See? Punish the sucessful for not giving enough away to the rotters, and
> tell the rotters they don't have to feel guilty about not working for a
> living, as they are the children of the lord.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion. What you describe is not biblical
christianity. You've obviously been offended by some christian or organization
which has caused all this animosity. As per above - is it rational to build a
belief system in reaction to another?
>
> > In these types of discussions it is important not to characterize the • abberant
> > as normal, if we do, of course our conclusions will be skewed.
>
> Find me a normal christian, then... we're all sinners, right?
C'mon, look around you. You don't need a christian to tell you that. We prove
it ourselves everyday. No one is perfect.
None of this is intended to be inflammatory or personal, just participation in
the arena of ideas.
Respectfully,
Bill
>
> --
> Larry Pieniazek - lpieniazek@mercator.com - http://my.voyager.net/lar
> http://www.mercator.com. Mercator, the e-business transformation company
> fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to lugnet.
>
> Note: this is a family forum!
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Message has 4 Replies:
 | | Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| (...) Bill, Lemme give you a clue. You're wasting your energy arguing like this. Don't take it personally, I make these misteaks all the time, myself. Here's some pointers: When you're discussing controversial topics such as religion, it's best to (...) (25 years ago, 11-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| (...) Wow, I never thought of it that way before -- and I agree 100%. Just as one has to have faith that God does exist in order to be a "theist," one has to have faith that God does not exist in ordre to be an "atheist." That is, there's really no (...) (25 years ago, 12-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| Bill, you're falling into the trap of quoting from scripture as if it were authoritative again. It is to you, we grant that, but it's not authoritative to me. (...) Trot out someone who's saved, then. Not someone who THINKs he is, or even KNOWS he (...) (25 years ago, 10-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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