Subject:
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Re: Mormon bashing again
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:49:16 GMT
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Reply-To:
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jsproat@io.SAYNOTOSPAMcom
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Viewed:
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618 times
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Christopher Weeks wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> > Back in the real world, my church provides rules and guidelines for its
> > members, and then steps back and lets people govern themselves. Not even the
> So, church members are free agents in that they're allowed (encouraged, or
> required) to make their own decisions about stuff?
Yes, we are instructed to exercise free agency. It is one of the greatest
blessings, promised to all of us in the pre-existance, and given to us when
Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit.
> > There were several reasons why polygamy was useful, especially considering the
> > effects that persecutions and subsequent cross-country migrations were having
> > on the Mormon population.
> That's and interesting explanation. It seems conveniently coincident that the
> recall of polygamy coincided with The US borders moving West and the inclusion
> of Utah. It just seems like God is micromanaging by going with the flow of
> political winds.
I see. You're setting up for a oft-debated point here.
That is certainly one way of viewing the polygamy issue. The best response I
can give you right now is that: I wasn't there, and I have seen stranger
stuff in scripture, so it doesn't shake my faith.
I dunno if I'd call a decision on that large of a scale micromanagement,
however. But so what? Single-handed micromanagement of such a large
organization as the LDS church would be daunting to your typical mortal, but I
suspect it poses fewer issues to the Lord.
> > Polygamy wasn't rampant, either; the polygamous marriages were conducted with
> Right. Did folks just decide to enter polygamous marriages, or were they doled
> out by God via the church?
It was decided by the couple -- er, goup -- to be. There is more than that of
course, as there is in any (LDS) marriage; e.g. an interview with the bishop
to determine temple worthiness, asking the father of the bride for her hand,
etc. As for whether the Lord instructed certain people to enter a polygamous
marriage, again I dunno, but I suspect that He did from time to time and with
good reason.
> > > (Is it correct that any president of the
> > > church is considered to be a prophet?)
> > Yes. It's sort of a prerequisite for the job.
> Is it also correct that there are other prophets? How does one know who
> prophets are? Part of Smith's reasoning (pre Mormon) was that the Bible tells
> you that you can ask God for clarity directly. This seems like it would
> encourage people to seek personal prophecy more than other Christian sects.
We Mormons also believe in a concept called personal revelation. (Other folks
might call it a hunch.) Essentially, the Holy Spirit can direct you is you're
open to receive its guidance. I have experienced this first-hand several
times; usually, it comes as a still, small voice saying things like "don't go
in there" or "call your mother".
> > > What about all the weird stories that (I think) appear in the BOM?
> > > Joseph's discovery of tablets, magical translation glasses, Jesus in the
> > > new world with native cities of gold, etc? Are these assumed to be true
> > > verbatim, or do you take some kind of allegorical stance on them?
> > Well, if you use those words, of course it sounds goofy.
> Don't take it personally, Moses talking to a burning bush sounds pretty goofy
> too.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't taking offense. :-, I was just worried about how someone
else reading this might interpret the discussion.
> Actually, which words made it
> sound goofy? Was it my implication that the glasses were magic rather than
> divine?
Yah, I guess that was it. To me, magic implies some form of ability which is
advanced far beyond my capability to fully understand, like orbital mechanics
or genetic therapy or regular expressions -- I have no problems referring to
divine capabilities as "magic". But again, my concern was that to a
third-party reader it might sound goofy, or have a different (more common)
definition of the word magic. I've had folks rail against me on this before,
but I know from past experiece that we're pretty much level-headed froods
here. I think I'd better switch out of defensive mode for now. :-,
> > Yes, these items from the Book of Mormon are taken to be true ver batim.
> My first bet is that this makes conversion harder since people seem jaded to
> the idea of a personal (and tangible) relationship with God and his critters
> (angels and such). But maybe it only makes it harder to convert other
> Christians.
The presense of a living prophet doesn't obviate a personal relationship with
the Lord. We're invited to pray and receive council regularly. (Also see
"personal revalation", above.)
(FWIW, the document you're referring to is "Joseph Smith -- History" from the
Pearl of Great Price.)
> Were you born to a Mormon family, or did you convert?
My parents converted before I was born, and I was raised outside of Mormon
central (Utah). So I had lotsa different influences growing up.
> > There were witnesses to the
> > golden plates and the "magical translation glasses", and none have ever
> > recanted on their testimony of what they saw.
> Weren't they Joseph's brothers, or were there more?
One or two of the dozen witnesses were related to Joseph, including his
brother Hyrum. The rest were friends, neighbors, business associates, and
others.
> If my impression of mormonism is from a few books (Saints, fiction by Card was
> the best read of the lot), and a few talks with Mormons, what would be my next > best time investment for learning
> more? The obvious answer would be the BOM which I have yet to read, but do you
> have any other suggestions?
You might start with the Articles of Faith. These were originally in a letter
Joseph Smith wrote to a newspaper editor (I forget which) when he was asked,
in short, what the Mormons believed in. These 13 statements can be found at
the end of the Pearl of Great Price, and also on the Web:
http://deseretbook.com/scriptures/pgp/aof/
(The entire scripture set can also be found through
http://deseretbook.com/scriptures/ )
Also, if the size of the Book of Mormon is a bit intimidating, I'd recommend
starting with just the first few chapters of 1st Nephi, at the beginning. It
serves as an introduction to the prophet Nephi, and reads faily easily.
I'd also recomend asking any missionaries you might have come across (;-), as
they can probably do a better job of pointing you towards reading material.
> (is it correct to refer to you as saints?)
LOL -- I guess you could, but not in the Catholic sense. I think the term
"Latter-Day Saints" is more prevalent. For me, the state of saintliness is a
goal, not a title. Anyway, I just use "members of the church" when talking to
Mormons, "Mormons" when talking with non-members.
> One of the ideas that I harbor about the LDS
> church is that there is a fair degree of secrecy; how do you suppose it would
> be received if I wanted to visit Mormon services but was open about being
> unconvertable?
I don't think you'd meet too much resistance. There are some people who might
take offense of your just looking, as though they would prefer to not "waste"
their time, but they're really just being selfish. (Unless you live in a
large Mormon population, I don't think you'll come across more than one or
two.) I think most Mormons would be glad to share our teachings with you,
even if you're just an objective observer.
At any rate, the secrecy is reserved for temple ceremonies, simply as a matter
of keeping them sacred. Weekly services are open to the public.
Cheers,
- jsproat
--
Jeremy H. Sproat <jsproat@io.com> ~~~ http://www.io.com/~jsproat/
Card-carrying member of the Star-Bellied Sneech Preservation Society
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) I had to visit 4 churches that weren't like mine (Protestant) for a religion class a couple of years back. By far the most interesting was the Greek Orthodox Church, but the Mormon church was the most welcoming. We (myself, a class mate and a (...) (25 years ago, 7-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) Just to throw in my two cents here, I am not a member of the Mormon Church, but several of my best friends and the parents of my goddaughter are. I have found the general LDS community to be very friendly and welcoming to a determined (...) (25 years ago, 7-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) which (...) So, church members are free agents in that they're allowed (encouraged, or required) to make their own decisions about stuff? (...) That's and interesting explanation. It seems conveniently coincident that the recall of polygamy (...) (25 years ago, 7-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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