Subject:
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Re: Mormon bashing again
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:37:17 GMT
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Viewed:
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693 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bill Farkas writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Patricia Schempp writes:
> >
> > Oh...don't get me started on separation of church and state. Some recent
> > steps in this country like posting the ten commandments in schools and
> > teaching creationism are complete violations of this in my opinion.
>
> Like it or not the ten commandments had a lot to do with the foundation of our
> entire way of life in this country. They are a historical example of a great
> legal system, just as Hammurabi's code. This country was founded by people who
> accepted and, for the most part, believed and practiced them (no nitpicks
> please); the system they devised is the greatest ever devised by imperfect • men,
> which in my opinion gives creedence if not validation to those founding
> principles. You can't deny their efficacy, nor their basic ideal - summarized
> by Jesus as, "Love your God and love your neighbor". Newsflash: this country
> has religious roots, it exists because of religion. If the pilgrims hadn't • fled
> religious persecution in search of the opportunity to practice what they
> believed without oppression we wouldn't even be permitted to have these types
> of discussions. We have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Atheism
> is also a religion, as is secular humanism, yet we are to bend over backwards
> not to offend these two extremely small minority groups. Posting the ten
> commandments is not a violation of church and state - a concept, by the way,
> that is not a part of any official document, least of all the constitution. It
> is reference in a private correspondence of Thomas Jefferson and a second
> party. The idea is that the Church cannot dictate politics or matters of State
> (because of the rule of the Catholic church over Europe during the dark ages
> which the Church had actually caused by blocking the flow of Greek literature
> including the Bible at Constantinople) and that the State cannot MANDATE a
> national religion. Posting the ten commandments is far from mandating • anything.
> That the founders ADVOCATED a particular religion is clear, the separation
> concept regards a mandate only.
I think Frank has answered succinctly about the founding fathers' views on
religion. No particular religion is to be advanced over another.
The Puritans were doing their best to persecute other religions, lost, and were
chased here more than anything. It was that many religions came here and had
to get along is what was the key. Rather than continue the religious wars of
Europe, tolerance and non-establishment of a state religion paid off. Not
perfectly. Not without its ups and downs, but adherence to that course has
saved us a lot of grief.
The Roman Cathotlic, which did its best to influence politics, blocked the flow
of Greek literature and the Greek bible because that was the Greek Orthodox
religion. The Byzantine emperor was the head of state and the head of the
religion (kinda sounds like The Church of England and the King/Queen being the
head of that and the kingdon). They considered themselves the inheritors of
the Roman world (despite being Greeks) and did their best to conquer the
Catholic side (Justinian and his his more difficult to spell general,
Belasarius). The point being that it was a reaction to religion in general
rather than just one particular one.
>
> As far as teaching creation, evolution is just as much faith based, if not
> more, than creationism. The mathematical probabilities are actually on the • side
> of an Architect - which all scientific journals admit, due to the fact that • the
> more we learn the more we realize the folly of Darwin. Much of Darwins theory
> and evidence were contrived and/or fabricated. Evolution, in the scientific
> community is all but dead, yet for lack of a substitute it remains because the
> alternative implies accountability to a Supreme Being, which is reprehensible
> to them. As for the mathematics - according to their numbers, it takes 240
> million years for the smallest of mutations to become universal to a species.
> Considering the staggering diversity of life forms on this planet it is
> mathematically impossible to account for them all. Not to mention the fact • that
> if you measure backwards to the 300 - 400 billion years they allow for, our • sun
> would've been so large that it's gravity would've drawn this entire solar
> system to a fiery end.
I can't say that I have found any scientific journal that supports your claims.
Virtually all of modern genetics is based on concepts laid out in Origin of
Species. Some of the specifics of evolution are under debate, to be sure -
Darwin rejected catastrophism, for example, and thought evolution to be a slow,
smooth process. Looking at the Galapogos Islands, it makes sense. But looking
at a meteor smacking the earth and changing everything overnight leads to other
conclusions now (information that Darwin didn't have at the time). Evolution
itself simply isn't under question in the scientific community.
The age of the universe is extrapolated to be vaguely around 25-30 billion
years old, not 300-400 billion. Our sun is somewhere around 5 billion years
old (again, the conventional wisdom).
>
> But my point here is not to prove one or the other, but to state that neither
> posting the ten commandments nor teaching creation constitutes a mandate by
> government. Besides the fact that this whole concept is not a part of the
> constitution anyway!
>
>
> > I don't care what people believe, but I really don't think public schools
> > are the place for religion.
>
> I'm old enough to remember when the religious aspects of this countries • origins
> were taught. Since they've been removed and substituted with the secular
> alternatives is it any wonder why our society has decayed as it has? If we • tell
> people that they are animals and morality is relative, why are we suprised by
> things like Columbine? Animals do these types of things. It's normal for
> animals to do these types of things. If there is no moral standard outside of
> that which we impose on ourselves, then no one can say that what those two • kids
> did is wrong. Yet we know that it was. If there is no objective standard of
> right and wrong that transcends ourselves then we have fabricated it ourselves
> and it really doesn't exist and hence can be modified by majority rule to suit
> ourselves. We know right and wrong because it has been written inside of us.
> When someone wrongs us we know it, because it DOES exist apart from what we
> think. If there is a rule or law, such as gravity, of necessity there is also • a
> law giver. If there was no such thing as light, there would be no such thing • as
> darkness; the fact that we know when someone wrongs us proves that there is a
> right, otherwise we wouldn't be able to conceive wrong. The fact that we • gather
> in to groups and universally come up with very similar laws to govern • ourselves
> is evidence of a law outside ourselves. An atheistic society will always lead
> to oppression, and why not - survival of the fittest right. Yet we all strive
> and yearn to be free, people everywhere risk death to come here to be free. • But
> according to Atheism the tragedies of Communism and Nazi Germany must be
> acceptable.
People simply don't want someone else's religion imposed on them. The original
poster was basically saying he had his religion, wasn't trying to impose it on
others, so please don't indulge in mindless Mormon-bashing. And that's what
people want: don't impose your religion on me. Don't force my son to recite
the eight-fold path. Don't force Jews to recite prayers to Jesus. Don't force
your children to recite prayers to Satan (God only knows why someone would
worship Satan, but, hey, freedom of religion). Don't force Hindus to gather
mistletoe. Don't establish a state religion.
Communism was a state religion (or religion substitute). It was dogmatic and
not to be questioned. Stalin rejected Darwinism (remember all those Russian
crop failures) because it didn't fit the state religion. It illustrates the
dangers of letting dogma dictate to science what is acceptable theory.
When we choose to believe something we must consider it's ultimate
> logical end. Without a God, anything is permissible, I defy anyone who doesn't
> believe in God to disprove that. If there is no accountability beyond • ourselves
> then there is no meaning/sanctity to life and anyone can do whatever they wish
> to fulfill themselves - including massacre 13 classmates. Apparently, they • were
> so fulfilled they took their own lives; either that or they judged their own
> actions and executed themselves - both of which cannot be condemned in a
> society that constantly cries, "Who are YOU to impose YOUR morality on ME!"
Last recorded words of the Columbine killers, "We are going to a better place."
Not the words of atheists. Unfortunately, too much has been deemed permissable
in the very name of God - murder, slavery, racism. Others have already
addressed the ability of secular humanists and atheists to find meaning and
sanctity in life better than I can.
Bruce
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) I agree and have said nothing to the contrary. (...) Very true, but not all "pilgrims" were puritans. (...) It was far more than that, and the greek bible had little to do with Greek Orthodoxy at this point in time. The ante-nicene and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) Like it or not the ten commandments had a lot to do with the foundation of our entire way of life in this country. They are a historical example of a great legal system, just as Hammurabi's code. This country was founded by people who accepted (...) (25 years ago, 2-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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