 | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | < cross posted to off-topic-debate > Rich, (...) Hmm... Being a Rush fan and a definite AFOL, I can see the logic of his thinking. Testing people on the ability to build anything, regardless of how good they might be, is a strange way of testing (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | (...) Being a Rush anti-fan (I think he's a bleeding moron), I don't agree (not just because he's Rush, but because he's WRONG). Using Lego in this way is an excellent test of spatial skills, pinpointing people with the right skills for many (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | Tom, (...) It might be, but doesn't have anything to do with testing people to get around affirmative action rulings. (...) So, giving an unfair advantage to people is being fair? (...) I took many classes over 5 years of going to college, Tom, and (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Jeremy H. Sproat
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| | | | | | | | | (...) You're assuming that the entire reason for these tests is to get around these court decisions. What if there was a larger, more important reason -- like attempting to make testing the applicants more realistic and fair (see below)? It is a sad (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | | | Jeremy, (...) "With affirmative action programs under legal fire, colleges and universities are searching for minority admissions procedures that can withstand allegations of unfair preferences." I am not assuming anything, this is a quote from the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Scott: (...) Boy oh boy, for the most part, you just hit the nail right on the head. Anyone asserting that college isn't a learning experience is using too narrow a definition. Almost invariably, one will learn about bureaucracy and incompetence, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dave, (...) College is a learning experience, just for the most part, not a pleasant or an enlightening one. (...) Yes, to a point. Colleges are so bad in everything in terms of paperwork, etc. It gave me a bad taste for inefficient, non consumer (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | The snipper from heck strikes again... (...) You forgot advanced beer drinking, how to file previous year exams to make them easy to find, why eggs are legal only at breakfast time, why freshman lab students might want to jump their lab instructor, (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Good points! I was pressed for time with my last post, so I didn't have the chance to explore the subject further! 8^) Dave! (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Hmm... I just went there for classes, not much else, especially those mentioned above. Scott S. ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn-> ssanburn@cleanweb.net Systems Administrator-Affiliated Engineers -> (URL) Page -> (URL) Page -> (URL) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Well that explains a lot... no wonder you're not having as much fun in later life! Seriously, a lot of the stuff I mentioned happens at colleges where the majority of the students are not commutters... (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Did you tease mynah birds Larry? Where did the profit come in? (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) There was a bar,(1) we went to when we went on Copper Country cruises. Among the things they had in this bar were an amazing gun collection hanging in the rafters (something like over 1000 guns including some very rare machine guns and stuff), (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Jeremy H. Sproat
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) So what about that part which says "minority admissions procedures that can withstand allegations of unfair preferences"? Sounds to me like they're vying for a more fair environment, not necessarily within the restrictions of affirmitave (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | Again, selectively snipping for the heck of it. (...) I agree with you, private colleges *should* be able to. But it's a forlorn hope. They provide public accomodations so they're stuck with the same loony regulations as everyone else. Even if they (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Thomas Burger
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Wow Lar your just lightin em up huh? LOL I can see Mindstorms maybe a excuse for college application.. Because thats some serious Lego shtuff (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) To me there are two issues. The first is do we take people into college who are not necessarily the most likely to succeed. The second issue is how do you assure someone is most likely to succeed. Since I believe it is impossible to come up (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | The radius of a D&D fireball (Was: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds") —Jeremy H. Sproat
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| | | | | | | | (...) LOL I got into the most heated (pun intended) argument with a DM once because someone lit a fireball in a long and skinny hallway; the people past the "radius" of the fireball were still damaged. Unfortunately, I was arguing for what the DM (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The radius of a D&D fireball (Was: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds") —Steve Hodge
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| | | | | | | | (...) Must have been the first edition DMs Guide. I'm pretty sure the 2nd Edition guide told you to expand the fireball to the full 33000 cubic feet. Regards, Steve Hodge (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) I'm not sure I agree with this. At least not the part about bleeding. For example, if there were a Satan, would he bleed? I don't think so. Rush is certainly moronic, though. In a good mood tonight because dubya got trounced in NH. Not that I (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | (...) What's so wrong about colleges looking for people with "initiative, leadership and an ability to work in groups?" You yourself said that those are real world issues. Why shouldn't colleges be preparing people for the real world? (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | Frank, (...) Yes, but I repeat myself many times: Since these people that are taking these test, mostly Hispanics and African Americans that would not normally get in due to the admission policies (I took this from the article, BTW), they use this (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | (...) Show me a test that is fair across the board. You can't, they don't exist. Standardized tests are "standardized" for the majority, and time after time have been proven to have prejudices against those not taught to what the test makers thought (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Why is that? Should the tests be designed to determine who has a good chance of succeeding at college? I think so. What if research indicates that testing 'white' people with the ACT is valid and testing 'black' people with a teamwork (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | Chris, (...) Because it sets up different standards, which segregate black and whites, and other groups. There is something about not discriminating because of race, sex, etc. Isn't there? Or should we? If we want a fair society, race and sex and (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) In that case, I think we should test ALL students at all levels on their assembler coding skills. Hey, you think using different tests for different people is not fair. Of course I'll start picking doctors who went to school in some other (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | "Scott E. Sanburn" wrote: > Why is that? Should the tests be designed to determine who has a good (...) Making it so they all go to college together segregates them? (...) Should not? What do you mean should? What if it does? Does matter, whether or (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | Heartlessly snipped, as usual (...) I guess I'm mostly with Chris on this one. Scott, you raise some valid points about flaws in the current system. But short of scrapping the whole notion of regulating how colleges admit people, which is my (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) My college education (at the first "engineering" college in the US (world?) - Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) certainly focused on a well rounded education. We were required to effectively take one humanities or social sciences class every (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | Larry & all, This whole set of posting is off from what I am arguing about, which is affirmative action. I think discrimination, on anyone, is wrong, in the context of jobs, education, etc. If we test people, shouldn't everyone take the same tests? (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) Ok, if the only discussion is about affirmative action, tell me, do you believe that currently blacks and women as general classes of people have the same opportunities as white males as a general class of people? If you do, then what is your (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Some do and some don't, just like everyone else. It depends on their life choices, etc. (...) That is debatable, but if they get paid less, that's something for the EEOC to look at. (...) To who? Does every job category have to have x this, y (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Your evading the question. I asked about "disadvantaged" minorities as classes. I am quite aware that INDIVIDUALS of every "disadvantaged" minority have been extremely successeful. My question is do you think that blacks as a whole have the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Driving around with a black woman in my car sure revealed this. Suddenly I started getting stopped for fix-it tickets. My favorite was when they noted a broken light on the far side of the car that they couldn't see when they turned on their (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) PURE BS there, Scott. Averaged across the board, women get paid less for the SAME work as men (less at the higher end all the way do to minimum wage, the only equalizer). You are so unbelievably wrong if you think it is the women's fault they (...) (24 years ago, 5-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | Frank raises some good points. But if I am careful I will find myself disagreeing with him... I think it would be naiive in the extreme to say that past history has not seen injustice suffered by some groups at the hands of others. Name an (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | To all, I am not the most articulate person in the world, but what Larry said is dead on. Scott S. (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) So are you saying that in Libertopia, the LEGO test for some people and the SAT for others is ok (Larry said that using different tests for different people and different schools is ok, both implicitly in this most recent post, and more (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Certainly a lot of my concerns about it fall into this category, I just want to make sure that the road isn't a suspension bridge during high wind, and that we aren't travelling in a high-sided vehicle! Richard (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, for what it's worth, I don't disagree with any of what you say below, though I suspect that in a Libertopia, we might find ourselves supporting some different causes. That's fine with me, I don't expect everyone to have the same (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Agreed. I expect Libertopia to be a GREAT place to start a commune, for example. No pesky laws about how many unmarried people can live in the same place to get in the way (although you may have to find a property not already encumbered with (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <389A0E53.92149830@v...er.net>... (...) Of course to some extent, private enterprise would probably end up involving itself if a another Hitler (oh well, we've lost the debate again) came along and a Libertopia (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Maybe, and maybe not. If they wanted not to be that would be OK. But in my paragraph above I was talking about things that we need to do right now, and that we need to do whether or not we are transitioning toward a libertopia or not... (...) (24 years ago, 4-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) So if the ACT is discriminatory in favor of wealth or whiteness, then it's wrong? Fine. I agree. What about the more complex situation where it's a fairly good predictor of success for white males of middle class or greater, but not for (...) (24 years ago, 4-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Susan Hoover
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| | | | | (...) (major snip) (...) This is true, for the most part, and for most majors. However, for CompSci, at least at my alma mater, there was a "team programming" course where your grade depended on the output of your team. I think the architectural (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | (...) The statement that initiative and leadership, etc., have nothing to do with going to college is dead wrong. It's not exhibited in college as often as it should be, and that's part of the reason for the search for better processes. People who (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Tamyra Teed
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| | | | | "Scott E. Sanburn" wrote: <snip> (...) I have to totally disagree with you here... We work in groups in school right now, You have to learn the team spirit and how to work in a group in order to be productive in the REAL world.. Companys don't want (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) To underscore the importance of teamwork, I will also point out that here at IBM, evaluation of teamwork is roughly 1/3 of our annual appraisal. (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Gary R. Istok
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| | | | | OK Scott. Somehow I knew that your conservativism would lead you to agree with Rush. I suppose if Robert Bork said LEGO was a Danish commie plot, you would agree?? Gary Istok P.S. :-) - Scott was the first AFOL that I ever met, and I like to tease (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | < cross posted to off-topic-debate and off-topic-fun, Lord knows where else it should be, maybe off-topic.scott.rant.evil or something? > Gary, (...) I would hope not! I don't like supporting communists, that's for sure! If it is, boy oh boy, I (...) (24 years ago, 2-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds" —Robert Brunskill
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| | | | (...) I'm sure there would be some sort of scandal about the politician taking money from Danish foreign interests... ...a scandal about LEGO sets being built in the White House... ...and then suddenly LEGO branches into the nuclear arms industry... (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.general)
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