Subject:
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Re: March Madness?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:13:22 GMT
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Viewed:
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301 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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From what I heard of yesterday’s transcripts, the Justices don’t seem too
moved by Newdow’s position. On the plus side, however, Newdow has by all
accounts represented his case admirably, in marked contrast to the old “a
lawyer who represents himself” adage.
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Some of (Newdow’s) arguments were pretty lame. The pledge is a “prayer”?
No wonder the justices seemed rather unimpressed.
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Well, hold on. If the Pledge includes the ceremonial invocation of a deity,
then in my view it’s as much a prayer as Bismillah or The Lord’s Prayer.
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I don’t think that the mere mention of a God connotates an invocation of that
God. The pledge is directed towards the flag and to our nation-- “under God” is
a description of that nation. All the phrase really means is that the majority
of the nation believes that it is “under God”, or in God’s care, or something.
I’m not sure it can mean anymore than that unless more meaning is read into it.
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He probably doesn’t even have the right to represent his daughter in the
first place, but I do hope that the case isn’t thrown out for that reason.
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I agree that it would be pretty feeble (but politically convenient) for the
Justices to reject his claim because of a murky custody issue. He apparently
has custody 10 days per month, and he probably pays child support. Why
shouldn’t he have a say how is daughter is instructed in matters of religious
belief?
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Well, what are you going to do? One wants it and one doesn’t. You can’t really
have both. And it’s 4 days a month for him.
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And speaking of his child, did you know that he claimed to a judge that he
became her father because he was date-raped by the girl’s mother? Cuckoo.
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Where’d you hear that? I don’t think it’s relevant to the case. And what if
it’s true, for that matter? Would it be just as funny if the girl’s mother
claimed that she’d been date-raped by Newdow?
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“At first, he did not embrace the role of parent. During a family court hearing,
Newdow claimed he had been the victim of ‘date rape.’ The judge called that
absurd.“
As far as relevance to the case: “But some supporters worry that family issues
could undermine Newdow’s case. He says he’ll discuss the custody fight if the
justices ask about it ‘because it’s hugely important. ... I’d drop the Pledge
(case) in a minute if I could have my daughter.‘”
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One thing that really annoys me (and is a sign of true prejudice) is that
every single news report of Newdow’s case uses the word “atheist” somewhere
in the first line, often instead of his name. Atheism is nothing to be
ashamed of, of course, but it would be like saying “Black Man Joe Smith
Argues Race-discrimination Case Before Court,” as if “black” or “atheist”
is legitimately central to the litigant’s position.
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Hmmmm. I don’t know, Dave! I don’t think he is acting in his daughter’s
best interest-- the mom is a Christian and probably so is the daughter, so
the pledge is hardly an issue for her. So why is he doing this? I
think it has more to do with him and his beliefs.
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His daughter’s best interest may be a matter for further consideration, but I
don’t think the mother’s faith (sincere though it be) necessarily determines
what is the best faith-related interest for her child.
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In terms of religious beliefs, isn’t it the right of any parent to raise a child
the way they see fit? Newdow doesn’t want the Christian mother to influence his
daughter to grow up religious because he thinks she (the daughter) might think
less of him as an atheist. Boo-hoo. It’s all about his feelings getting
hurt. Boo-hoo.
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I don’t expect that
the daughter has had the benefit of years’ worth of critical self-assessment
during which to formulate her views on faith,
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Come on, Dave! No child has that! Are you suggesting that parents shouldn’t
raise their children to be religious?
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so it would seem to me that the
best course would be to expose her to the views of both of her parents as
even-handedly as possible, letting her decide for herself when she’s ready.
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We are not talking about a situation where, for example, one is Jewish and one
Christian. We are talking about one who believes in something and one who
doesn’t. They are diametrically opposed. How can you present that even-handed?
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As far as Newdow’s motives, who can say for certain? I admit that a part of
me looks forward to the day when Matthew brings his science book home from
school with an anti-evolution disclaimer inside! If you think I’m cordial
and restrained on ot-debate, just wait until I storm the school board!
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Give’em hell! I have ripped a few “educators” of my children new ones in my
lifetime!
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But I would guess that this *is* rooted in Newdow’s belief--from everything
I’ve seen and read about him, he believes that government should play no role
in the endorsement of religious observance, and he believes that the Pledge
qualifies as such endorsement. I happen to agree with him on both counts.
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Sadly, I thought it was more of a philosophical debate until I did a little more
reading about the situation. Now it appears to be just an ugly custodial rights
battle.
JOHN
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: March Madness?
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| (...) This may be an "agree to disagree" point. It's well established that the phrase was injected into the pledge to distinguish our "Christian" nation from the godless atheists of the communist USSR, and it's also well established that Eisenhower (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: March Madness?
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| (...) Well, hold on. If the Pledge includes the ceremonial invocation of a deity, then in my view it's as much a prayer as Bismillah or The Lord's Prayer. (...) I agree that it would be pretty feeble (but politically convenient) for the Justices to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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