Subject:
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Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:03:20 GMT
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Viewed:
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1268 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes:
> > Does that make my opinion less informed than yours?
>
> One political science course? Well then, yes.
Well, it was a minor but--semantics--irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
An *opinion*, a voice, a discourse is *protected* by the 1st. If I don't
like your opinion--my tough cookies, just as if you don't like mine--your
tough cookies.
>
> > And if you want to own your gun, great! I personally could care less.
> > Don't equate that gun with keeping your civil liberties, though. It has
> > nothing to do with keeping your freedom at all. It is just to show you how
> > freedom should work--you have the right to own a gun in a free nation, just
> > as a 5 year old has the right to own a security blanket.
>
> See, this is the part that just seems incredibly myopic if not just plain
> ignorant to anyone with any sense of world history and of U.S. history in
> particular.
And yet the most powerful man in the free world left his office because of
hte power of the *law*, not the power of a gun. It is you, sir, who are
myopic and incredibly self-centered in continuinng to think that your gun in
your house is doing *anything* to protect the freedoms you so enjoy today.
> Y'know, those guys in the Warsaw Ghetto didn't fight back the Nazis with
> strong opinions...call me crazy, but I bet many Jews stay well-armed. As it
> should be.
I believe there was mo democratic process in place at the time--no other
*option* for the oppressed to change the system--I believe it is why your
own revolution started--taxation without representation--no voice a la
democracy then need something a little louder so the 'powers that be' will
hear you--a la guns. Democracy dispences with the need of somehting louder
for the people have the voice, the people have the power.
> By contrast, those kids in Tiananmen Square were merely massacred outright.
> Why? No guns.
No democracy
>
> Freed slaves in the U.S. considered gun ownership the ultimate sign that
> they were indeed free. A couple of shotguns in the household is also pretty
> good security against those KKK-type nutcases.
A long time ago--and now the number one cause of death for black americans
under the age of 35 is homicide. I think they'll dispute their freedom, but
they can't 'cause they're dead.
> Japanese-Americans were placed in Californian concentration camps WITHIN
> LIVING MEMORY. Why not Italians-Americans? Why not German-Americans?
And Japanese Canadians were interned in Alberta and their property
confiscated--Yeah, bad things can happen if the people don't stand up and do
something about it--if the people said to their representatives that the
internment was reprehensible and that these citizens should *not* be
interned, and that if their representatives didn't do something to fix the
situation, that they would be voting for 'the other guy' come next election,
you wanna sit there and tell me that nothing would get done? Gov't will
listen to the will of the people for if they don't they're gone in the next
vote. It may have been a dumb-ass law enacted by the gov't in the forst
place that interned our fellow citizens, but it was us who sat on our hands
and naively thought we were 'more safe' 'cause this internment took
place--there's that old saying--"they came for the handicapped, but I did
not speak up/they came for the jews and the blacks, but I did not speak
up/they came for the women and children but I dod not speak up/they came for
me but there was no one left to speak up." Speak up--you're sleeping in the
bed of your own making.
> There's a famous play about a witchhunt called "The Crucible." It is widely
> understood to not actually be about the time period in which the play is
> actually set. It's actually about -- anyone, anyone? -- that's right, the
> McCarthy Era. That's only back to the 50's.
Again, if the people stood up and said something...
Gov't is bad--sure--they have done some stupid things. It's the people who
put these folks into power in the first place. Start with your neighbour
and try to convince him or her that your ideals are better, that there's an
injustice being done somewhere--get your rep. to do somehting or kick his or
her heinie out of office--it's the power of democracy.
>
> I am from the Los Angeles area originally and we used to have this fellow as
> the chief of police, Daryl Gates, who thought that casual drug users ought
> to be taken out and shot. Yeah, that fills me with confidence in the >police...
Was not a pretty sight, no. But again, if the people in LA stand up against
such acts, the police will have to change the way they do things.
>
> Who was Frank Filz referring to as political prisoners? Was it just the
> HUGE number of persons in the U.S. prison system? Or did he have certain
> supposed "criminal offenses" in mind? Or did he mean the inordinate number
> of "persons of color" sitting on death row?
Again I mentioned that pinnacle of democracy in the world has more of its
citizens incarcerated than Russia under communism and Africa under
aparthied. Yeah there's something wrong with the system--stop whining about
it and threatening to shoot people, and do something about it--change the
system--get your rep. on your side. Sell your point--it is the nature of
capitalism--if people like what you have to say, if they believe in your
cause, they will vote accordingly the next election. If they don't follow
your lead, it isn't because they're dumber than you are, it's because maybe
they just don't believe in your opinion--The nature of democracy.
>
> So, David, when you say it can't happen again, or that it won't happen here
> -- just don't be too sure about that. It has happened very recently, and is
> likely to happen again. Frankly, it's happening all the time...we merely
> remain overwhelming tolerant of the abuses.
And again I say unto you, I never said it *wouldn't* happen again, either
here, nor there, nor anywhere, Sam I am. I said that *if* somethings wrong,
there are ways, solid factual, easily attainable, concrete ways of working
within the system to correct the wrong. If we "remain overwhelming tolerant
of the abuses", then my dear friend, that's your bed and you gotta sleep in
it. Convince your fellow citizen that these abuses are there. I have faith
in your neighbour, I have faith in your fellow citizen to do the right thing
(well, at least that 50.1 percent of your fellow citizens will do the right
thing) if given the facts.
> Do you not realize what is happening even as I write to Arab-Americans?
> Catch a clue, buddy. Your being uninformed
Uninformed, again. Hmmm... If Person B doesn't like Person A's opinion,
Person B is obviously uninformed. To me if Person A's opinion is so
entrenched in dogma that Person A cannot see the negative impact of that
opinion, it is up to Person B to point it out. I speak my opinion, my
truth--at least I'm putting the truth out there, where it has to be, and I
can modify my opinion as new data and situations arise--is called evolution
and adapting--instead of entrenching myself further into my own little
worldview.
You catch a clue. I hear 'fledging democracies need guns to sustain the
democracy and that is why the 2nd ammendment exists' the last few posts.
1776 was a long time ago--I do not think the US is a fledging
democracy--stop thinking your country is less than 20 years old. Stop
thinking that your country hasn't changed since the DOI, since hte writing
of the constitution, since George Washington crossed the Delaware. Stop
thinking that your gun in your house is what keeps tyranny at bay. It isn't
'cause there are a few countries that are 'Democratic Republics', just like
the United States, and they're getting along quite well without guns.
> is not nearly as infuriating as
> your smugness about that very condition -- and yes, I am calling you on
> that. Your complacency angers me -- it speaks of forgetfullness of that
> which should never be forgotten: the suffering of others for political and
> economic gain.
And I was not one *ever* forgetful that gov't can pass dumb-ass laws. Your
elitism angers me. Elitism is one step away from racism--"My 'informed'
opinion is vastly superior to your 'uninformed' opinion that you are not
worth listening to. I am superior to you."
>
> Civility is merely the veneer worn by the world's most pointlessly violent
> animal: the human being.
We are pointlessly violent--someone once said "we are the only animal who
preys on itself for sport." The human animal is violent, I have no problem
admitting, conceding, or even wholeheartedly believing that. However, once
in a good home, the human animal is the best animal for adaptation and
growing--we mature. Those that can't--those that want to hold on to their
security blankets--will either be dragged, kicking and screaming and whining
and bitching into the 21st century, or left behind.
This isn't natural law here--we tamed the frontier--we found better ways of
living together, we grew, we matured. Yes there are still issues to be
resolved, and there *always* will be issues to be resolved. Yes democracy
is plagued with problems but guess what? It was a human construct and not
one human here is perfect, so our constructs, surprise surprise, will not be
perfect. But as some other historical figure once said, democracy is the
lesser of *all* evils, and I concur.
Not once has anyone here refuted Nixon leaving office without the sign or
even *implied threat* of a gun.
Not once has anyone here shown that the democratic process, with all its
problems, doesn't work. It has the ability to adapt and change due to the
power of the vote. People change and therefore so does hte process. If
something doesn't work, fix it--don't shoot it. Not once have I said the
sytem was perfect. Not once did I say that it can't use a healthy dose of
fixing here or there. But *I'm* not willing to throw the baby out with the
bathwater. I'm not willing to go "git a gun" to threaten people with being
shot if they don't follow my will--that's non-democratic, that's tyranny,
and it's something *I'm* working against. How 'bout you?
Not once has anyone here refuted that the 2nd ammendment was written before
streetlights and the police, and even if it did read the way you want it to
(it doesn't), it's archaic and isn't needed in the United States of America
today and perhaps should be stricken form the books, in either case. You
don't live in a fledging democracy anymore. The services are out there
abroad and at home, doing the best they can to protect your civil liberties
and your freedom. Sure they screw up once in a whole and sure you get a
'bad apple' in the bunch--but a) nobody's perfect and b) you have the power
to change the system from within the framework--not burn down the house and
start over.
Not once has anyone refuted that little Timmy and little Melissa (age 5 and
4) can, under law, own a gun. Timmy and Melissa *are* people, therefore
they should legally be able to own a gun. I think not.
>
> -- Hop-Frog
Thanks for staying in the conversation though.
Dave K
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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| (...) So an armed citizenry is not an implied threat? (...) You are completely missing the point. When (not if) the government becomes corrupt to the point that it is no longer a democracy, it is time for the people to invoke their second amendment (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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| (...) He didn't say your opinion was infelicitous. He said it was rooted in ignorance. (...) It's arguable that he was the most powerful, but even that said, there were many many awfully powerful forces aligned against him. He wasn't even supported (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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