Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:25:20 GMT
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Viewed:
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2117 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
>
> > Of course it was a joke when Bill Clinton would say, "God bless America"-- he
> > wouldn't know God from a cigar butt, but he still said it.
>
> So in addition to being a self-admited homophobic, misogynist bigot, you
> also presume to judge who can sincerely invoke God's name? How many times
> have you cast the first stone, John?
Again you miss my point. The name of God is invoked by all, whether they
actually believe in God or not-- it is a *cultural* thing. As to your first
sentence, I'm not sure what that's about.
>
> > Because it's American. It's as American as baseball and apple pie.
>
> Atheism is as American as apple pie. My right to be protected against
> overzealous religious propaganda is as American as apple pie. Separation of
> church and state is as American as apple pie. Freedom of religion, and
> freedom FROM religion are as American as apple pie.
>
> > What? You don't like baseball? Tough. The same goes for God language.
>
> You seem to be pretending that Richard or Bruce or I am insisting that no
> citizen maintain his own religious beliefs, and we certainly are not
> claiming that. Instead, we are requiring that Congress, in accordance with
> The Constitution of The United States of America, not establish a religion.
*a* religion. Using God language doesn't establish *a* religion. How do you
explain Jefferson envoking God all of the time in his writing? Certainly *he*
believed in separation of church and state? If I must I'll go dig up Madison
quotations where he uses God language. Please address this seeming
contradiction.
> That is entirely separate from your perception that God is an American(1)
> and is frankly irrelevant to questions of the founding fathers' religious
> views. I don't care if Jefferson was, in his on beliefs, a full blown
> practicing Scientologist;
I don't either. I never wanted to bring religious flavors into this debate,
but you all seem to think that that is a hidden agenda of mine. Please try not
to read into my argument too deeply. I do not have the full agenda of the
Conservative Christian right hidden in my pocket.
the fact remains that he believed absolutely in
> the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state.
Agreed, Dave! Now just explain to me why Jefferson began the Virginia Statute
of Religious Freedom thusly:
"WHEREAS Almighty God hath created the mind..." That's all I'm asking for.
Why do you
> invoke your perception of the founding fathers' beliefs but at the same time
> only choose to adhere to the ones that are convenient for your agenda?
What *is* my "agenda"? To leave well-enough *alone*. That's it. *I* am not
the one trying to rock the boat.
-John
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