Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:51:52 GMT
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Viewed:
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2176 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> >
> > > Of course it was a joke when Bill Clinton would say, "God bless America"-- he
> > > wouldn't know God from a cigar butt, but he still said it.
> >
> > So in addition to being a self-admited homophobic, misogynist bigot, you
> > also presume to judge who can sincerely invoke God's name? How many times
> > have you cast the first stone, John?
>
> Again you miss my point. The name of God is invoked by all, whether they
> actually believe in God or not-- it is a *cultural* thing. As to your first
> sentence, I'm not sure what that's about.
From a previous thread. I'll dig it up, if you'd care to review it...
> > You seem to be pretending that Richard or Bruce or I am insisting that no
> > citizen maintain his own religious beliefs, and we certainly are not
> > claiming that. Instead, we are requiring that Congress, in accordance with
> > The Constitution of The United States of America, not establish a religion.
>
> *a* religion. Using God language doesn't establish *a* religion.
"God language" is an imprecise euphemism. If Congress enacts legislation
saying "include 'under God' in the Pledge," then Congress has absolutely,
unequivocally, and un-Constitutionally endorsed God, which is at the very
least an endorsement of monotheism, which is a religion.
And here's the axe you SHOULD be grinding: if "under God" is simply a
rhetorical affectation, then you should be calling for its removal because
it defies the 2nd Commandment (and if "under God" is an after-the-fact
affectation, then what's the harm in removing it); if "under God" is a
religious invocation, then it should be removed because it is a
State-endorsed religious invocation.
> How do you
> explain Jefferson envoking God all of the time in his writing? Certainly *he*
> believed in separation of church and state? If I must I'll go dig up Madison
> quotations where he uses God language. Please address this seeming
> contradiction.
Did Madison or Jefferson invoke God in the text of The Constitution?
THAT'S the issue. I don't care if Jefferson said "God guide my hand as I
write this document," as long as the document itself is free from religion,
which it is. There is no contradiction.
> I never wanted to bring religious flavors into this debate, but you all seem
> to think that that is a hidden agenda of mine. Please try not to read into
> my argument too deeply. I do not have the full agenda of the
> Conservative Christian right hidden in my pocket.
That may be the case, but I flatly don't believe you when you say that
your motivations for keeping "under God" in the Pledge are not religious in
nature. It doesn't even seem like a "hidden" agenda; it's right there on
the table, given previous debates with you and the tack you take in just
about all of them.
> the fact remains that he believed absolutely in
> > the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state.
>
> Agreed, Dave! Now just explain to me why Jefferson began the Virginia Statute
> of Religious Freedom thusly:
>
> "WHEREAS Almighty God hath created the mind..." That's all I'm asking for.
I don't give a hoot about the Virginia Statute drafted in 1777, since
we're discussing the United States Constitution of 1787, the
un-Constitutional actions of the US Congress in 1954, and the [some of the
very likely] un-Constitutional actions of the US Congress in 2002.
> What *is* my "agenda"? To leave well-enough *alone*. That's it. *I* am not
> the one trying to rock the boat.
No? Well, you're squarely on the side of those who are. "The Boat" is
the separation of church and state.
Dave!
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