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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
>
> > > > > I could come up with a number of reasons that a person might not want their
> > > > > parentage or maritl status broadcast. And you might just say those reasons
> > > > > don't apply to you. But what about others? I don't think this is just • about
> > > > > you. I don't care if anyone knows who my parents are either...at least not • off
> > > > > hand. But some people might and I don't see it as my right to prevent • their
> > > > > privacy.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, please point some reasons to me. I may even write a memo to the ID
> > > > bureau here (no kidding!) if they are irrefutable.
> > >
> > > You might not want your parentage known under any circumstance where • parentage
> > > matters. If you are a mix of ethnicities, one or more of which are
> > > discriminated against, you might not want it obvious.
> >
> > Maybe... but then again, it is highly unlikely that any portuguese hasn't
> > had ancestors of different races/ethnicites, thus noone can pick on me for
> > that. Besides, names here are all alike, for all ethnicites.
>
> Even if people come from other nations? And racism is unheard of in Portugul?
> That rocks!
The issue of "immigration" is rather new to our society, only in the last 20
or so years there has been a significant immigration (mainly Africa, and now
former USSR). Our country is more of the "emmigration" kind, at least
historically - for a population of 10M, we have another 5M abroad (at least
that is what is said in the papers). So our experience is rather scarce.
Racism is not "unheard of" in .pt, but it has little expression. Xenofobia
is more common, and even that will eventually fade away.
> So basically, instead of being concerned about those who might wish to keep
> their parentage private, what you are doing, is in fact, simply explaining my
> objections away by saying that _you_ don't care. That's just what I predicted
> above would happen.
Like I said, Racism is of little expression here. Maybe ther is a reason to
it. Who knows, maybe all those people who came back from the colonies in '75
brought some tolerance along with them.
> > > If your parent is
> > > (in)famous, you might not want to be hassled about being their kid.
> >
> > Ah, fame... I can count famous criminals in Portugal by the fingers of my
> > right hand. And some fingers may not need to be used... :-)
> > And fame doesn't usually hit stars' children - there are laws to prevent
> > that from happening.
>
> Ah..I see.
>
> > > If your
> > > parentage is unsure the entry might look funny.
> >
> > ?
>
> What if your father's identity is unknown? What appears on your card?
A number of things. In the old days, there used to be the mention "Father
unknown". In the present, the mother or the son can require the alleged
father to make paternity tests: positive, or refusal to do the tests, and
the name goes to the ID. The adoptive father (if existant) can also provide
the name, voluntarily. I think the "Unknown" can still be used, if required.
For the record, in the 60's or so about half of the kids from the working
class had that "Unknown" mention. Mainly in the south - dunno why.
> > > If your parent has any kind of
> > > enemies, you might not want it brought to attention that you are kin.
> >
> > See, that would be a good point. But if my father had enemies, it would be
> > likely they would know me even without the ID...
>
> Unless he had taken care to hide you from them by surrepititiously moving or
> otherwise covering tracks.
Then they would not know I existed, and since it would be highly unlikely
I'd find any of such enemies walking down the road... I'd be entereing the
realm of paranoia.
> > > You might not want your marital status scrutinized when you are in the • process
> > > of changing said status (e.g. getting a divorce). Or when you are • considering
> > > or attempting to attract someone sexually who might be put off by your
> > > marriage. Or in situations where one status is valued above another.
> >
> > I won't even bother to answer to that. And if you are married, I'd suggest
> > you never even tell your wife about this paragraph.
>
> Why, in both cases?
You guess!
> > I can identify at will. I can go around and scream my name (before 10pm...
> > :-). I am proud to be myself. So why would I not wish to be prepared to
> > prove who I am?
>
> I'm trying to explain that this isn't all about _you_. The fact that you don't
> care if others know who you are doesn't mean that others might have a different
> opinion on the matter. What about them? Why don't you care at all what they
> want? I would prefer to give people the freedom to embroider their name on
> their clothing, or not.
And I'm trying to explain you that there isn't ANY reason to be afraid of
getting your identity revealed. IF, and I say IF, you can find any reason
for it, you can always change name legally. It only requires the age of 18,
and it can be done every 5 years. THEN it would be absolutely safe to cry
the new name loud.
> > According to a recent news in Portugal, it takes about 20 seconds to copy a
> > card. There have been demontrations of that. A guy in France who warned the
> > banks about the same was arrested (!), to silence the voices of those who
> > want better card security.
> > Be aware. Honest.
>
> They still have to know my PIN.
No they don't. That was also what *I thought*. It only requires the card.
Believe me, they did it LIVE on TV. And the person that showed how it was
done said the device was sold freely, and cheap.
> > Criminals and mobsters are the reason for the ID. They are the ones that
> > should be identified. I don't see why you'd want to protect THEM.
>
> Well, I listed them as being those who come in contact with cops and
> coincidentally live in a more dog eat dog world than do I. I don't
> particularly want to protect them if they're actually doing something wrong.
> But as often as not, they aren't. If there isn't a victim, then there isn't a
> crime, as far as I'm concerned.
The victim may be unaware of the crime. The victim may be difficult to name.
But yes, I agree - no victim, no crime. Maybe illicit (i.e., parking tickets).
> > Here, probably you would just be taken to precinct (no cuffs) and asked to
> > phone someone that could prove your identity. If all were right, you could
> > leave. Notice that you wouldn't be "arrested".
> > I understand thins may be different in the States, it appears you follow
> > procedures much more closely. The police here are given more freedom to
> > improvise, and they can decide exactly who they want to trust (and how far).
>
> I think that either your understanding of our police is faulty or things are
> really messed up over there. Our police have enormous leeway in deciding how
> to handle situations and they exercise judgement on a minute to minute basis.
Maybe faulty understanding. By default, I take it that every cop is
"good"... and what was said before in the thread made me wonder how far that
applied.
I am now reassured.
Things are not messed up here, we are just living a smoother life. It is
cool, few worries to live with.
Pedro
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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| (...) about (...) their (...) parentage (...) Even if people come from other nations? And racism is unheard of in Portugul? That rocks! So basically, instead of being concerned about those who might wish to keep their parentage private, what you are (...) (23 years ago, 14-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.loc.pt)
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