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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> Let me just say that we, as Americans, should not be so sheepish to jump on
> the war bandwagon. War against whom?
War is a terrible thing and no one should jump on the war bandwagon without a
very good reason and only after he has considered all the possible
alternatives.
> How in Heaven's name will killing other
> civilians ever make things better in the world?
Pick a war in history in which you think the winning side was right to go to
war. Do you think the world would be a worse place if Germany won WW2? Do you
think the world would be a worse place if Saddam was still controlling
Kuwait? None of these wars could have been won without killing civilians. (In
the gulf war the US went to great lengths to minimize the risk to the civil
population but still some civilians got hurt)
> That is not justice, that is
> revenge and no one has the right to condemn the citizenry for the sins of
> it's government or leadership. The attack yesterday is proof of that, we
> shouldn't make the same mistake and become "indiscriminate" murderers.
In WW2 the civilians were part of the war effort. It seems like there was no
way of winning without crippling the industry and making everyday life
difficult. Bombing citizens is a horrible thing but if the alternative is
annihilation someone should make a very difficult decision.
Even if the power you are against is not as strong as you are it is impossible
to ensure that only the "right" target is hit. In most wars some of your own
casualties come from friendly fire, so it's really not surprising that some
civilians may also be accidentally hurt.
That does not make you "indiscriminate murderer", it makes you a nation in
war.
It is impossible to catch and trial every person in the world.
You have certain expectations from every country in the world. One of these
expectations is that it will see to it that none of it's civilians performs
any hostile act against you.
Obviously, reasonable judgment should be used. You can't go to war every time
someone throws a stone across the border. But if a citizen of a certain
country gets ten thousand people killed the very minimum you can expect is
that this country will help you in every way it can to bring this person to
justice. If it doesn't you have to make it do so. This can be done by
diplomatic pressure, by economic pressure or by violence. I would prefer to
use the first two options, but if I have to I'll be forced to use the last
option.
> Yesterday morning I went to get my hair cut and the hairstylist was
> commenting on the attack. I only said that I hope the people responsible
> will be brought to justice. She said "They're all Iranian." Hopefully such
> ignorant comments are few and far between. If we resort to such thinking we
> are no better than those who carried out this attack, Arab or otherwise. It
> is yet to be determined who carried out this attack (usually a group will
> step forward and claim responsibility).
I read some of your other posts and I understand that you are an Arab living
in the US and that you were subject to harassment just because of your looks
and race. This is a terrible thing and I think the people doing these kind of
things should be punished. But, however you think your hairstylist thinks, she
did not murder thousands of innocent people, so I think that she _is_ much
better than those who carried out this attack, Arab or otherwise. At least
until she proves me wrong.
I resent the comparison, but agree with what I think you are trying to say.
> We should avoid stirring up hatred against Arabs. I recall the hours after
> the Oklahoma City bombing and the immediate call to arms against certain
> Arab nations, not considering that it may have been one of our own citizens.
> At this point, we still don't know who is behind this. And if it turns out
> the ethnicity of the attackers is Arab, it does not justify blanket hatred
> of Arabs. We'd be no better than the Nazi's with regard to the Jews of Europe
Until the US starts transporting millions of Arabs from all over the world
into concentration camps in the purpose of wiping the Arab race off the planet
I wouldn't say that it is as bad as the Nazi's with regard to the Jews of
Europe.
Again, I do agree with the general idea of this paragraph but not to the very
bad comparison.
> Regarding the scenes of Palestinians cheering after the attack, I have
> learned that the footage shown (or several portions of the footage) was
> possibly before the attack, and was the Palestinian reaction to Israeli
> troops withdrawing from that town.
Where did you hear that?
Perhaps from the sources who said Israel is poisoning the water of the
Palestinian Authority?(!) Or are those the sources that reported that Israel
has special unit of female soldiers that strip in front of the Palestinian
soldiers in order to attract them and then shoot them?(!!)
Maybe it's the sources that reported Israel is bombing Palestinian schools
with poisoned candy?(!!!) Or the latest news: The attack on the WTC is a
Zionist plot.(!!!!)
You live in a country that has one of the best journalism on the planet and
yet you choose to get your information from sources that operate in dark
totalitarian countries in which any journalist that reports something that the
government doesn't like will see the end of his career immediately (If not
worse).
When someone is trying to convince me that something I know happened [1]
didn't actually happen I have a hard time trusting him about anything.
I saw a female reporter on the BBC reporting that the cheering Palestinians
are just a handful and that most of the Palestinians are shocked and glued to
the TV. Anyone living in the Middle East (well, at least between the
Mediterranean sea and Jordan) knows that isn't true so what makes her say
that?
The Associated Press now reports that the Palestinian Authority arrested a
palestinian that works for a foreign news crew who shot pictures of the
celebrations and told the news agency that this man works for that if those
pictures are broadcasted the man will be harmed. (killed?)
All the Israeli news agencies report that that is not an isolated case [2].
Many reporters where threatened that the Palestinian Authority will "not be
able to ensure their safety" if they report about the celebrations. Several
news agencies instructed their reporters to keep away from the celebrations in
order to avoid the embarrassing situation in which they have pictures they
don't publish.
This is not a new phenomena - the Italian reporter who filmed the lynch of the
two Israelis sent an apology letter to the Palestinian Authority(!) but still
had to flee the area and abandon the covering of the conflict. Perhaps if it
wasn't such a great scoop he would think twice if it is worth sacrificing the
time and effort he had put into the matter (establishing connections etc.).
Not to mention if it is worth risking his life over it.
> Around the Arab world, the feeling is
> mostly one of shock and outrage. If the Palestinian footage is indeed in
> celebration of the attack, then such behavior is very disappointing.
I've come to expect such a behavior - those are the same people who celebrate
when suicide bombers kill dozens of Israeli children. Obviously these people
would not agree with your opinion that "no one has the right to condemn the
citizenry for the sins of it's government or leadership."
> But I
> want to remind everyone that the Palestinians are a people who have suffered
> under brutal military occupation for nearly 50 years.
2001 - 1967 = 34 years. (and not 50 years!)
I wish proving your other claim (that this occupation is brutal) wrong was
that easy [3]. Although I'm against the occupation I totally disagree with
your opinion that this occupation is brutal [4]. The fact is that Palestinians
that are under different occupations (in Jordan or in Lebanon) are in much
worse conditions.
Even though Israel was faced with violence from the Palestinians many times
the Palestinians were never faced with truly brutal force like they faced in
Jordan during "Black September".
The Palestinians are the best educated people amongst the Arab nations and up
until the recent surge of violence enjoyed an economic growth unparalleled in
any of the neighboring Arab countries (excluding the oil producing ones).
I truly think that if the Palestinians were willing to compromise a solution
could have been found. Part of the unwillingness to compromise comes from a
religious point of view in which thing are absolute and human lives are
relatively unimportant.
Many of them actually believe that if they kill themselves along with dozens
of Israeli children they'll go to heaven and have 72 virgin women at their
service. How are you supposed to negotiate with that?
> Their cheers are
> perhaps no different than our own when the bombs rained on Baghdad, even
> though innocent civilians were being killed in both cases.
>
> What happened yesterday was a murderous and destructive act of hatred
> against our nation. But it should also be considered a wake up call to our
> government for it's unarguable role in fostering aggression and hatred
> around the world, and within our own borders as with Oklahoma City. The
> innocent shouldn't be condemned and suffer and die for the sins of the
> leadership. We should seriously examine why someone, or some group, would
> feel compelled to carry out such a horrible act. There are several lessons
> to be learned here, the main one is that killing innocent men, women and
> children is wrong. Most important, let our comments rest on peace and
> justice, not war and revenge.
>
> Dan
I don't understand what you mean by "a wake up call". It's not like Bin Laden
had a shortage of publicity. It's not like he says "Well, sorry about that,
but now that we got your attention...".
If you think what the US does is wrong then there is no need for a "wake up
call" to try to change it. Otherwise the only way this attack can change your
behavior is exactly the way the terrorist intended it : To threat the US that
this sort of thing would happen every time the US won't behave as he thinks it
should behave.
It seems to me that the ones who didn't learn the lesson about killing
innocent men, women and children are the ones who initiated this attack.
Since they don't believe, like you and me, in those values there must be
another way of teaching them that lesson.
- David
[1] Friends of mine saw hundreds of cheering Palestinians after the attack.
[2] Channel 1, Channel 2, Reshet Bet and GLZ - and those are agencies in which
if you report something with no foundation you are likely to lose your job and
if you report something (true) that the government is embarrassed about (a
"scoop") you are likely to get promoted. And I have many examples if you are
interested.
[3] I'm against the occupation and against many actions of my government.
Israel has made many mistakes over the last 53 years but still, we occupied
the west bank when we were defending our lives and the existence of our
country.
This is a very problematic existence because we came to a region that already
had some local population. Although we tried to live along side this
population they didn't accept our presence [5]. They attacked Israel time
after time bringing death and misery to both sides.
We feel that "they started" the cycle of violence because they attacked first
and they feel we started because we arrived from nowhere and made a claim for
the land.
I totally understand their point of view but we really had no choice - as
history has proven the Jewish people has to be able to defend itself in it's
own country if it wants to survive [6]. The only (culturally) reasonable
place was the plot of land our people were driven out of 2000 years ago.
What happened 2000 years ago is hardly enough to convince a Palestinian today
but we really had no choice - we had to go somewhere.
Somehow this cycle of violence must end. Israel has made several major efforts
in the last ten years to find a way of ending this conflict. We ended most of
the occupation and Ehud Barak went to unbelievable lengths in what he offered
Yasser Arafat in Camp David. Still, we were refused and faced with a new
attack.
Many Israelis believe that the Palestinians are not ready for any compromise.
They feel that the Palestinians don't accept the fact that the Israelis might
also have a point and that the Palestinians will be content only once we are
all out of here.
Those Israelis feel their position is reinforced by what happened in Lebanon.
The Hizballa declared that they are fighting to get us out of Lebanon ("To
comply with the UN resolution"). Once we pulled out of there and the UN
declared that we complied with it's resolution they changed their tune and now
they are "helping the Palestinian struggle" and once again we are faced with a
hostile north border with soldiers kidnapped into Lebanon and rockets fired
into Israel (The reason we went into Lebanon in the first place).
[4] As much as a bad thing like a military occipation can be.
There are always individuals that will do bad things (to the extreme of the
horrible act commited by Baruch Goldstein). And even without them the local
population can suffer from the situation even if it's not "brutal" compared
with other military occupations.
[5] Who could blame them? "Who are those foreigners that come from Europe by
hundreds of thousands and think they run the place?"
[6] How would you feel if your survival depended on your ability to convince
the men that are harassing you because you are Arab that it's a wrong thing to
do?
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: War
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| Well, if anyone had any doubts that our anonymous foe is prepared for a long, drawn-out struggle, those should be laid to rest by now. Details aren't all in, but it appears those who didn't get a chance to carry out their "missions" on Tuesday (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: War
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| (...) <snipped> It would take too long to respond to every item in your post so let me just say that we agree killing innocent people is wrong. Also, we can agree that demonizing and making generic assumptions about another culture is wrong. (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | War
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| Let me just say that we, as Americans, should not be so sheepish to jump on the war bandwagon. War against whom? How in Heaven's name will killing other civilians ever make things better in the world? That is not justice, that is revenge and no one (...) (23 years ago, 12-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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