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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> > and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> > during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> > torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> > else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> > I digress, as usual).
>
> Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
> the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
> History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
> there about subs.
The most entertaining book I read about US subs in the Pacific
was the venerable 'Pig Boats,' a popular-issue book that was
as of 1992 still available in paperback. As for academic books,
Morison like most was still enamoured with the skimmers. They
don't quite appreciate that it's the submarines that may have
been the decisive arm of the Navy. US subs were operating close
to Japan from early 1942 on--even, for a time, in the Sea of
Japan. They were responsible for something like 1/2 of all
naval tonnage sunk as well as about 80% of all merchant shipping
lost by Japan during the war. From around 7 million tons of
ships, plus ~3 million built during the war, down to about 200,000
tons at the end. Ack. What Germany attempted, it seems, the US
brought to fruition.
Oooh, the train. That's a great story. By 1945, with few
targets to shoot at, bored sub crews would occasionally shell
the coast at random and, in one instance, sent about five or six
people ashore with a torpedo warhead and set it up on the local
railroad tracks so it'd take the train out...as for other odd
things, USS Bowfin (IIRC) has a dock, a crane, and a bus on its
battle flag--because, well, it torpedoed a dock, and the crane
and bus came down with it. They came in *close* from 1944 on,
even picking up downed fliers in Tokyo Bay.
> > That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
> > Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
> > was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
> > sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
> > did larger fleets appear.
> >
> > For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
> > masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
> > skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
> > these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
> > friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
> > the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
>
> I think I read somewhere that he was also a Muslim and that didn't go over too
> well.
I'm not sure--usually when someone becomes a eunuch that's
pretty much the defining characteristic of their being. It's
also the source of their incredible power. The Chinese attitude
was that, with enough work, anyone could become civilized like
the Chinese (and then of course pay homage...).
> > A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
> > The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
> > Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
> > for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
> > to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
>
> I put a hold on that. Thanks, Lindsay.
I hope it's as exciting as I think it is...we history geeks can
find the most boring works fascinating. I mean, come on, I study
surveying for goodness sake.
> > But the Chinese did use rockets and cannon militarily from
> > at least the 15th century AD, but in all likelihood far
> > longer. It wasn't refined into broadsides and grapeshot,
> > but the idea that China had gunpowder and 'didn't know what
> > to do with it' is nothing more than an amazingly persistent
> > (imperial) myth.
>
> Ooh, rockets! Would they have been on ships or only on land? I know the British
> used rockets from ships at some point.
'And the rockets' red glare...' 18th century on.
IIRC the rockets were also seaborne. They had more scare-
the-locals and start-big-fires value than anything--no 18th-
century Wehrner von Brauns running about or the like. They
were all solid-fuel, too.
> > I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
> > their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
> > was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
> > those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
> > weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
> > too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
> > and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
> > But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
> > idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
> >
> > > At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be • employed.
> >
> > Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
> > the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
> > major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
> > class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
>
> I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
I forget the name, but the Japanese had a word for the musket
that dates to the 16th century. I remember an article had been
written on the use of gunpowder in Japan following European
contact, and how it was eventually contained, but the cite has
escaped me at present. I'll ask the Dutch when I talk to them.
> > Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
> > of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
> > list for global history...;)
>
> A professor who assigns actual books! Where do you teach? I used to be a
> history major as well as PoliSci, but I had to drop it because the classes and
> professors were a joke. One of my professors whom I had to continually correct
> finally told me that 'dates aren't that important'.
Actually, your professor is kind of correct. Memorizing dates
is like memorizing chemical interactions--that's what references
are there for. You need to know the basics, the generalities,
the trends, and the big stories, but one can very easily become
bogged down in dates, which don't mean anything by themselves.
HOWever you generally try not to say that after class has begun.
You point it out from the very start. (I only grade down on
dates when the dates are wayyyyy off...or the order. Who knew
that the US Civil War was a direct consequence of World War II?)
Faculty a joke? Where on Earth are you? I want to compete in
the job pool against the jokes--man, that's like grenade fishing
in a barrel. I'm still working on my PhD, so they don't give
me too many classes--the exam reading list I'm talking about
is my *own* for the last examination I have to take before I can
forget about jumping through hoops and write my thesis and (gasp)
be done. As much as I like Rutgers, I'm ready to go do something
productive (or at least more financially rewarding) than being
a student.
best
Lindsay
FUT -> .people
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) Thanks. (...) too (...) Wow, even I don't read anything that boring. Actually, at the moment I'm re-reading a great book, A Naval History of WWI. Before reading it, all I knew about WWI naval history was Jutland, but this guy (Paul Halpern) (...) (24 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.people)
| | | Re: pirate + ninja
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| Mr L F Braun wrote: <SNIP> (...) Since the first guns arrived on the island of Tanegashima, guns were known as tanegashima for a while, but were later called teppo. Chris (24 years ago, 3-Mar-01, to lugnet.people)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in there about (...) (24 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
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