Subject:
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Re: pirate + ninja
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.people
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Date:
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Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:49:30 GMT
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Viewed:
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3105 times
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > > I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> > > and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> > > during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> > > torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> > > else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> > > I digress, as usual).
> >
> > Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
> > the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
> > History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
> > there about subs.
>
> The most entertaining book I read about US subs in the Pacific
> was the venerable 'Pig Boats,' a popular-issue book that was
> as of 1992 still available in paperback.
Thanks.
> As for academic books,
> Morison like most was still enamoured with the skimmers. They
> don't quite appreciate that it's the submarines that may have
> been the decisive arm of the Navy. US subs were operating close
> to Japan from early 1942 on--even, for a time, in the Sea of
> Japan. They were responsible for something like 1/2 of all
> naval tonnage sunk as well as about 80% of all merchant shipping
> lost by Japan during the war. From around 7 million tons of
> ships, plus ~3 million built during the war, down to about 200,000
> tons at the end. Ack. What Germany attempted, it seems, the US
> brought to fruition.
>
> Oooh, the train. That's a great story. By 1945, with few
> targets to shoot at, bored sub crews would occasionally shell
> the coast at random and, in one instance, sent about five or six
> people ashore with a torpedo warhead and set it up on the local
> railroad tracks so it'd take the train out...as for other odd
> things, USS Bowfin (IIRC) has a dock, a crane, and a bus on its
> battle flag--because, well, it torpedoed a dock, and the crane
> and bus came down with it. They came in *close* from 1944 on,
> even picking up downed fliers in Tokyo Bay.
>
> > > That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
> > > Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
> > > was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
> > > sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
> > > did larger fleets appear.
> > >
> > > For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
> > > masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
> > > skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
> > > these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
> > > friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
> > > the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
> >
> > I think I read somewhere that he was also a Muslim and that didn't go over • too
> > well.
>
> I'm not sure--usually when someone becomes a eunuch that's
> pretty much the defining characteristic of their being. It's
> also the source of their incredible power. The Chinese attitude
> was that, with enough work, anyone could become civilized like
> the Chinese (and then of course pay homage...).
>
> > > A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
> > > The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
> > > Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
> > > for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
> > > to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
> >
> > I put a hold on that. Thanks, Lindsay.
>
> I hope it's as exciting as I think it is...we history geeks can
> find the most boring works fascinating. I mean, come on, I study
> surveying for goodness sake.
Wow, even I don't read anything that boring. Actually, at the moment I'm
re-reading a great book, A Naval History of WWI. Before reading it, all I knew
about WWI naval history was Jutland, but this guy (Paul Halpern) goes into
Austro-Italian battles on the Adriatic, Turkish and Russian conflicts in the
Black Sea, gunboats on the Danube, etc. Some of the stuff he describes sounds
very doable in LEGO, if I can find some pics.
> > > I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
> > > their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
> > > was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
> > > those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
> > > weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
> > > too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
> > > and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
> > > But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
> > > idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
> > >
> > > > At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be • employed.
> > >
> > > Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
> > > the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
> > > major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
> > > class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
> >
> > I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
>
> I forget the name, but the Japanese had a word for the musket
> that dates to the 16th century. I remember an article had been
> written on the use of gunpowder in Japan following European
> contact, and how it was eventually contained, but the cite has
> escaped me at present. I'll ask the Dutch when I talk to them.
>
> > > Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
> > > of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
> > > list for global history...;)
> >
> > A professor who assigns actual books! Where do you teach? I used to be a
> > history major as well as PoliSci, but I had to drop it because the classes • and
> > professors were a joke. One of my professors whom I had to continually • correct
> > finally told me that 'dates aren't that important'.
>
> Actually, your professor is kind of correct. Memorizing dates
> is like memorizing chemical interactions--that's what references
> are there for. You need to know the basics, the generalities,
> the trends, and the big stories, but one can very easily become
> bogged down in dates, which don't mean anything by themselves.
> HOWever you generally try not to say that after class has begun.
> You point it out from the very start. (I only grade down on
> dates when the dates are wayyyyy off...or the order. Who knew
> that the US Civil War was a direct consequence of World War II?)
That's what happened; she had the Japanese overrunning the Phillipines,
Singapore, etc., and THEN attacking Pearl Harbor. I pointed out the error in
class, to which her reply was, "That's what the book says". She finally gave up
after class and then gave me the defense mentioned above.
> Faculty a joke? Where on Earth are you?
Frostburg State University in western MD. That's what happens when you have a
2.3 high school GPA. Thank God for the SAT's.
Another of my history professors shows 2 or 3 videos every class, and the
'video log' that we keep is worth 20% of our grade.
> I want to compete in
> the job pool against the jokes--man, that's like grenade fishing
> in a barrel. I'm still working on my PhD, so they don't give
> me too many classes--the exam reading list I'm talking about
> is my *own* for the last examination I have to take before I can
> forget about jumping through hoops and write my thesis and (gasp)
> be done. As much as I like Rutgers, I'm ready to go do something
> productive (or at least more financially rewarding) than being
> a student.
A friend of mine is waiting to hear back from Rutgers about his grad school
application. How is it up there?
Yeah, the academic life is getting a bit old for me as well. Due to my
less-than-stellar sophomore year and a year in which I only took one class due
to lack of funds, I'm a 4th-year junior.
Hey, were you serious about modeling the Turtle? Because that gave me the idea
to do the Nautilus (the Robert Fulton one, not the Disney one). It would be
pretty cool if we could get somebody to do the Hunley, then we could have a
antique submarine show at the Pirate Game. It would be tough to actually work
them into the game, but it would be pretty neat.
-Marc
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) The most entertaining book I read about US subs in the Pacific was the venerable 'Pig Boats,' a popular-issue book that was as of 1992 still available in paperback. As for academic books, Morison like most was still enamoured with the (...) (24 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
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