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To All,
I put this question to the whole community. Would you be interested in attending
a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
Now, your input here is essential. What time of the year would you prefer to
have it? What type of convention would you want? Does it need to carry a
recognizeable brand name such as BrickFest or such? How many days would you want
it? What types of perks from the park would you like to see?
Use this post as a place to exchange ideas. For those on the west coast unable
to make it north to NorthWest BrickCon or east to BrickFest, what would you like
a southern California convention to be.
The reason I am asking? I do not know, really. Would I offer to organize some
aspect of it or lead it? Would I attend it if it came about? I guess essentially
I would like to attend the Legoland park yet again and enjoy the new rides I
have not experienced since the last BricksWest was held there, and I would like
to attend with a couple hundred other friends.
Sincerely,
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> The reason I am asking? I do not know, really. Would I offer to organize some
> aspect of it or lead it? Would I attend it if it came about? I guess essentially
> I would like to attend the Legoland park yet again and enjoy the new rides I
> have not experienced since the last BricksWest was held there, and I would like
> to attend with a couple hundred other friends.
Hey Todd. We have discussed this very thing among our club, and several of our
members have been trying to get me to organize such an event here in the San
Francisco Bay Area. I even put a small presentation together to pitch to our
members, but I never finished it. Let me know if you want me to send you a copy
of what I have so we can start sharing ideas.
--
Russell Clark
President/Co-Founder, BayLTC/BayLUG
http://www.baylug.org/russellc/
Fire Chief, PCFD
There is a very fine line between
"hobby" and "mental illness".
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Great topic Todd and timely too. GPLR (Greater Portland LEGO Railroaders) are
already working on something up here in Portland. There have been so many
requests for another BrickFest PDX that we thought we'd do it again!
So far we've started talking to other west coast clubs, the LEGO Group, and have
agreement with Christina about using BrickFest name again (and her help in
organizing the event). If we can get our bricks in a row with respect to venue
etc. we are targeting an announcement at NW BrickCon Oct 6-8 '06.
Please note these plans are in the early planning stages, and we still have a
lot of preliminary work before broad calls for theme coordinators and the like
are made. But I thought I'd take this oppertunity to "leak" a bit of info.
Hope to see you all at NW BrickCon!!!
<http://www.nwbrickcon.org/metadot/index.pl>
SteveB
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> To All,
>
> I put this question to the whole community. Would you be interested in attending
> a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
>
> Now, your input here is essential. What time of the year would you prefer to
> have it? What type of convention would you want? Does it need to carry a
> recognizeable brand name such as BrickFest or such? How many days would you want
> it? What types of perks from the park would you like to see?
>
> Use this post as a place to exchange ideas. For those on the west coast unable
> to make it north to NorthWest BrickCon or east to BrickFest, what would you like
> a southern California convention to be.
>
> The reason I am asking? I do not know, really. Would I offer to organize some
> aspect of it or lead it? Would I attend it if it came about? I guess essentially
> I would like to attend the Legoland park yet again and enjoy the new rides I
> have not experienced since the last BricksWest was held there, and I would like
> to attend with a couple hundred other friends.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Todd
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In lugnet.events, Steven Barile wrote:
> Great topic Todd and timely too. GPLR (Greater Portland LEGO Railroaders) are
> already working on something up here in Portland. There have been so many
> requests for another BrickFest PDX that we thought we'd do it again!
Steve,
That's great news! I am excited by the idea of another trip to Portland.
Hopefully the dates fall at a time I can attend.
I watch this newsgroup eagerly for news of the next BrickFest PDX.
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> To All,
>
> I put this question to the whole community. Would you be interested in attending
> a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
>
> Now, your input here is essential. What time of the year would you prefer to
> have it? What type of convention would you want? Does it need to carry a
> recognizeable brand name such as BrickFest or such? How many days would you want
> it? What types of perks from the park would you like to see?
>
> Use this post as a place to exchange ideas. For those on the west coast unable
> to make it north to NorthWest BrickCon or east to BrickFest, what would you like
> a southern California convention to be.
>
> The reason I am asking? I do not know, really. Would I offer to organize some
> aspect of it or lead it? Would I attend it if it came about? I guess essentially
> I would like to attend the Legoland park yet again and enjoy the new rides I
> have not experienced since the last BricksWest was held there, and I would like
> to attend with a couple hundred other friends.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Todd
I am not really sure that it is necessary to have it at Legoland--
The way I see it, people who go to Lego Conventions are not really that
interested in the Legoland experience unless there could be a really interesting
behind the scenes tour like I went on with the Inside Tour at Billund. And even
that takes time away from the real thing.
I have now gone to 5 or maybe 6 of the conventions and the one thing that I have
definitely come to the conclusion about is that a large hotel--convention center
has some really major advantages. This year's BrickFest was in my opinion the
best yet because the people pretty much all stayed at the venue, and the
exhibits were all in one large room. However it works out for a reincarnation of
a BricksWest, I really think that the venue and the hotel should, if not in the
same building , associated with one another. Most convention centers have a
hotel adjoining, and this makes it so much nicer. The main room being open
almost all night was really nice, and the fact that if you got tired, you were
only an elevator ride away from a shower, a bed, or an adult beverage. The
interaction between the different groups (themes) was I feel much better with
everyone exhibiting in the same room.
And the beauty of this year's arrangement was that some very reasonable hotel
rates were negotiated.
There is of course financial risk involved, but with proper advertising, public
day can be the hedge. BricksWest 2003 did not pay its bills (as well I know)
because it did not have that extra source of income. And it might have even been
a hindrance to having it at LegoLand as why would the public want to pay to see
more LEGO while at Legoland? They would expect it to be inclucded in the price.
Unless of course LegoLand itself would pitch in with some major support. The
stuff done by AFOL's and the stuff done at LegoLand are in my opinion completely
different. In fat the more I think about it, I feel it shoudl NOT be held at
LegoLand--but some other city. Now if you could negotiate $89/ night hotel rooms
at 4 star hotel in San Francisco in February--sign me up now.
I really think that any medium to large metro area with good facilities and
airport would work fine. AFOL's go to the convention to go to the
convention--not to sightsee. Easy access to airport, restaurants, bars, and
preferably a LEGO store.
As far as the date is concerned, it seems to me if going to be in California,
make it in the winter so there is the added incentive for all those people who
are tired of the cold weather to rationalize a trip west. February makes sense
to me.
That would be about midway of the year after BrickFest-which I assume will
probably be in July or August.
Tommy ARmstrong
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In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> > To All,
> >
> > I put this question to the whole community. Would you be interested in attending
> > a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
> >
> > Now, your input here is essential. What time of the year would you prefer to
> > have it? What type of convention would you want? Does it need to carry a
> > recognizeable brand name such as BrickFest or such? How many days would you want
> > it? What types of perks from the park would you like to see?
> >
> > Use this post as a place to exchange ideas. For those on the west coast unable
> > to make it north to NorthWest BrickCon or east to BrickFest, what would you like
> > a southern California convention to be.
> >
> > The reason I am asking? I do not know, really. Would I offer to organize some
> > aspect of it or lead it? Would I attend it if it came about? I guess essentially
> > I would like to attend the Legoland park yet again and enjoy the new rides I
> > have not experienced since the last BricksWest was held there, and I would like
> > to attend with a couple hundred other friends.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Todd
>
> I am not really sure that it is necessary to have it at Legoland--
> The way I see it, people who go to Lego Conventions are not really that
> interested in the Legoland experience unless there could be a really interesting
> behind the scenes tour like I went on with the Inside Tour at Billund. And even
> that takes time away from the real thing.
>
> I have now gone to 5 or maybe 6 of the conventions and the one thing that I have
> definitely come to the conclusion about is that a large hotel--convention center
> has some really major advantages. This year's BrickFest was in my opinion the
> best yet because the people pretty much all stayed at the venue, and the
> exhibits were all in one large room. However it works out for a reincarnation of
> a BricksWest, I really think that the venue and the hotel should, if not in the
> same building , associated with one another. Most convention centers have a
> hotel adjoining, and this makes it so much nicer. The main room being open
> almost all night was really nice, and the fact that if you got tired, you were
> only an elevator ride away from a shower, a bed, or an adult beverage. The
> interaction between the different groups (themes) was I feel much better with
> everyone exhibiting in the same room.
>
> And the beauty of this year's arrangement was that some very reasonable hotel
> rates were negotiated.
>
> There is of course financial risk involved, but with proper advertising, public
> day can be the hedge. BricksWest 2003 did not pay its bills (as well I know)
> because it did not have that extra source of income. And it might have even been
> a hindrance to having it at LegoLand as why would the public want to pay to see
> more LEGO while at Legoland? They would expect it to be inclucded in the price.
> Unless of course LegoLand itself would pitch in with some major support. The
> stuff done by AFOL's and the stuff done at LegoLand are in my opinion completely
> different. In fat the more I think about it, I feel it shoudl NOT be held at
> LegoLand--but some other city. Now if you could negotiate $89/ night hotel rooms
> at 4 star hotel in San Francisco in February--sign me up now.
>
> I really think that any medium to large metro area with good facilities and
> airport would work fine. AFOL's go to the convention to go to the
> convention--not to sightsee. Easy access to airport, restaurants, bars, and
> preferably a LEGO store.
>
> As far as the date is concerned, it seems to me if going to be in California,
> make it in the winter so there is the added incentive for all those people who
> are tired of the cold weather to rationalize a trip west. February makes sense
> to me.
>
> That would be about midway of the year after BrickFest-which I assume will
> probably be in July or August.
>
> Tommy ARmstrong
I think Tommy has the right idea. I do NOT want to have an event at LLCA simply
because when it comes to display and meeting facilities, dare I say it, LLCA
sucks (remember BricksWest 2003 and the rained out tent!).
If an event were to be held in southern California, then do it north of LLCA in
Anaheim or south of LLCA in San Diego. Both cities have zones (thinking of
Hotel Circle in San Diego) where hotels have the facilities, are many, and close
together thus giving attendees options where to stay.
As to LLCA, heck, charter a bus or something so we could do shopping at the
pick-a-brick.
I, too, favor the idea of having it in February; we'd have Presidents Day three
day weekend available.
Adr.
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> If an event were to be held in southern California, then do it north of LLCA in
> Anaheim or south of LLCA in San Diego. Both cities have zones (thinking of
> Hotel Circle in San Diego) where hotels have the facilities, are many, and close
> together thus giving attendees options where to stay.
>
> As to LLCA, heck, charter a bus or something so we could do shopping at the
> pick-a-brick.
>
> I, too, favor the idea of having it in February; we'd have Presidents Day three
> day weekend available.
>
> Adr.
I really have done some serious thinking about this whole convention thing-and
here are some other thoughts.
1: What made this BrickFest possible at the venue at which it was held was the
fact that if a certain number of rooms were booked, the meeting rooms, great
hall, etc. were provided by the hotel for free--at least that is the way I
understand it. But there had to be a guraratee, a contract signed, if the number
was not achieved. As I understand it, this is pretty much the way it is done--so
if at a hotel attendees should be encouraged to stay at the venue. In the case
of the Sheraton, the prices offered were extremely competitive--cheaper than any
of the surrounding hotels, and therefore it was a no brainer to stay there.
2 The Sheraton staff was really extremely nice and helpful, and I think saw that
the whole thing was done in a professional manner. I got talking to many of them
and they were well pleased and even very interested. If I was going to be the
cooordinator for one in California, I would definitely look at a Sheraton, as
you could get what I think would be good reference from the DC Sheraton. I would
definitely try and get the meeting rooms for free with a certain number of
booked hotel rooms. I have of course not researched what is available in San
Diego or Anaheim,but bet there are some good options.
3 There needs to be a public day--after all that is the AFOL "outreach" and it
can bring in enough money to help subsidize many of the perks--like the free
meal Friday night. Kudos to Joe for that touch.
4 I went to the first BricksWest--flew out there as MG had taken a chance on my
name badge idea. I thoroughly enjoyed San Diego. But with no public day, and
only registration money to pay for everything, it was close financially. The
next year--it went bankrupt. He had to guarantee the site and restaurant and
simply did not charge enough to cover the costs of the other things (like the
badges, for instance).
5 Although BrickFest is officially Friday,Sat, and Sun--in reality it is also
Thursday for many. Thursday is a big set up day, check in, and get ready day.
And as mentioned that could be the LegoLand day if someone wanted to go--I
myself would opt for the San Diego Zoo which I found to be incredible.
6. One of the main things is not to be afraid to charge enough for registration
to cover the costs of the event. Going to a real BrickFest Convention is a big
deal. It really blows my mind that people actually complain about the cost of
the registration. Somehow they come up with enough money to spend hundreds at
the LEGO Store, and yet complain about $20/day for the registration. Gimme a
break. The cost of the registration is less than most large LEGO kits.
More thoughts late
Tommy Armstrong
www.brickengraver.com
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In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
>
> I really have done some serious thinking about this whole convention thing-and
> here are some other thoughts.
>
> 1: What made this BrickFest possible at the venue at which it was held was the
> fact that if a certain number of rooms were booked, the meeting rooms, great
> hall, etc. were provided by the hotel for free--at least that is the way I
> understand it. But there had to be a guraratee, a contract signed, if the number
> was not achieved. As I understand it, this is pretty much the way it is done--so
> if at a hotel attendees should be encouraged to stay at the venue. In the case
> of the Sheraton, the prices offered were extremely competitive--cheaper than any
> of the surrounding hotels, and therefore it was a no brainer to stay there.
>
> 2 The Sheraton staff was really extremely nice and helpful, and I think saw that
> the whole thing was done in a professional manner. I got talking to many of them
> and they were well pleased and even very interested. If I was going to be the
> cooordinator for one in California, I would definitely look at a Sheraton, as
> you could get what I think would be good reference from the DC Sheraton. I would
> definitely try and get the meeting rooms for free with a certain number of
> booked hotel rooms. I have of course not researched what is available in San
> Diego or Anaheim,but bet there are some good options.
That's a great idea! I did some looking around and found this-
Sheraton's in San Diego-
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F233129BD
Sheraton's in Anaheim (it does cover LA too)-
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A153529BD
> 3 There needs to be a public day--after all that is the AFOL "outreach" and it
> can bring in enough money to help subsidize many of the perks--like the free
> meal Friday night. Kudos to Joe for that touch.
Absolutely! One thing I discovered when searching Sheraton's site was that
Westin hotels are part of the Sheraton chain and the Westin in downtown San
Diego is a block away from the local NBC station. Getting together w/ the
station could certainly be a great outreach tool.
Having the event at LL just doesn't give the same public outreach because
visitors have to pay the park in order to see us and you don't have the media
next door!
> 4 I went to the first BricksWest--flew out there as MG had taken a chance on my
> name badge idea. I thoroughly enjoyed San Diego. But with no public day, and
> only registration money to pay for everything, it was close financially. The
> next year--it went bankrupt. He had to guarantee the site and restaurant and
> simply did not charge enough to cover the costs of the other things (like the
> badges, for instance).
>
> 5 Although BrickFest is officially Friday,Sat, and Sun--in reality it is also
> Thursday for many. Thursday is a big set up day, check in, and get ready day.
> And as mentioned that could be the LegoLand day if someone wanted to go--I
> myself would opt for the San Diego Zoo which I found to be incredible.
Well, the Westin is in downtown and you can* walk from the Westin to the San
Diego zoo (* It's a long uphill walk.). But for those who want to take a break
from fest activities, downtown San Diego has much to offer like the USS Midway
museum for one. (Forgive me if I'm pushing the San Diego idea too much but, hey,
I'm a local.)
> 6. One of the main things is not to be afraid to charge enough for registration
> to cover the costs of the event. Going to a real BrickFest Convention is a big
> deal. It really blows my mind that people actually complain about the cost of
> the registration. Somehow they come up with enough money to spend hundreds at
> the LEGO Store, and yet complain about $20/day for the registration. Gimme a
> break. The cost of the registration is less than most large LEGO kits.
>
>
> More thoughts late
>
>
> Tommy Armstrong
> www.brickengraver.com
Yea, the registration will always be something to gripe about for someone. But
with a well organized plan where attendees have a good idea what will be, people
will think it's worth it.
Adr.
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In lugnet.events, Adrian Egli wrote:
> (Forgive me if I'm pushing the San Diego idea too much but, hey,
> I'm a local.)
Don't apologize. Part of the attraction of a con in San Diego would be the other
things you could do. I might bring my whole family and stay the whole week. I
want to see HMS Surprise at the Maritime Museum and visit the San Diego Zoo as
well as go to LEGOland with my kids. Just for starters.
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In lugnet.events, Ted Godwin wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Adrian Egli wrote:
>
> > (Forgive me if I'm pushing the San Diego idea too much but, hey,
> > I'm a local.)
>
> Don't apologize. Part of the attraction of a con in San Diego would be the other
> things you could do. I might bring my whole family and stay the whole week. I
> want to see HMS Surprise at the Maritime Museum and visit the San Diego Zoo as
> well as go to LEGOland with my kids. Just for starters.
Wow -- the HMS Surprise--put me down--I saw the Victory this summer and the
Surprise would be the "fait accompli".
I forgot that was in San Diego--
Push on for San Diego--great venue and lots of LEGO AFOL's out there if I
remember correctly. Besides great weather.
Tommy Armstrong
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In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
snip
| |
6. One of the main things is not to be afraid to charge enough for
registration to cover the costs of the event. Going to a real BrickFest
Convention is a big deal. It really blows my mind that people actually
complain about the cost of the registration. Somehow they come up with enough
money to spend hundreds at the LEGO Store, and yet complain about $20/day for
the registration. Gimme a break. The cost of the registration is less than
most large LEGO kits.
|
I guess I’m one of those people - not that I complained, I just didn’t go
because I couldn’t afford it. The last BF I went to (in ‘04), I probably spent
around $125 total for registration, t-shirts, and bricks, and I doubt I’ve ever
spent more than $200 at a BF. So I’m not complaining just to complain, the cost
is actually a dealbreaker for me. I was hoping to volunteer at this year’s event
and attend at a free or reduced rate, but I was told that volunteers had to pay
full price for registration.
Is it really a problem that BF isn’t charging enough for registration? By my
math, BF took in about $24K from registration fees and $21K from the public,
plus a few bucks from merchandise sales and seller fees, but lets say $45K
total. If the exhibit space was free with the room reservations, what do you
need all that money for? My wife does a lot of event planning for a nonprofit,
and she couldn’t figure it out.
I’m sorry if anyone takes offense at these questions, but I know other AFOLs are
asking the same thing.
Marc Nelson Jr.
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
snip
| |
6. One of the main things is not to be afraid to charge enough for
registration to cover the costs of the event. Going to a real BrickFest
Convention is a big deal. It really blows my mind that people actually
complain about the cost of the registration. Somehow they come up with
enough money to spend hundreds at the LEGO Store, and yet complain about
$20/day for the registration. Gimme a break. The cost of the registration is
less than most large LEGO kits.
|
I guess I’m one of those people - not that I complained, I just didn’t go
because I couldn’t afford it. The last BF I went to (in ‘04), I probably
spent around $125 total for registration, t-shirts, and bricks, and I doubt
I’ve ever spent more than $200 at a BF. So I’m not complaining just to
complain, the cost is actually a dealbreaker for me. I was hoping to
volunteer at this year’s event and attend at a free or reduced rate, but I
was told that volunteers had to pay full price for registration.
|
One of the reasons a lot of people I know have complained is because the price
is higher than a lot of other events, such as science fiction conventions and
anime conventions, and they’ve felt it just isn’t worth the same, especially
considering the public days. Also, not everyone spends additional money at BF.
I haven’t in a number of years; the only reason I was at the store this year was
because I went to dinner at Tyson’s beforehand.
Jeff
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In lugnet.events, Jeff Stembel wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
snip
| |
6. One of the main things is not to be afraid to charge enough for
registration to cover the costs of the event. Going to a real BrickFest
Convention is a big deal. It really blows my mind that people actually
complain about the cost of the registration. Somehow they come up with
enough money to spend hundreds at the LEGO Store, and yet complain about
$20/day for the registration. Gimme a break. The cost of the registration
is less than most large LEGO kits.
|
I guess I’m one of those people - not that I complained, I just didn’t go
because I couldn’t afford it. The last BF I went to (in ‘04), I probably
spent around $125 total for registration, t-shirts, and bricks, and I doubt
I’ve ever spent more than $200 at a BF. So I’m not complaining just to
complain, the cost is actually a dealbreaker for me. I was hoping to
volunteer at this year’s event and attend at a free or reduced rate, but I
was told that volunteers had to pay full price for registration.
|
One of the reasons a lot of people I know have complained is because the
price is higher than a lot of other events, such as science fiction
conventions and anime conventions, and they’ve felt it just isn’t worth the
same, especially considering the public days. Also, not everyone spends
additional money at BF. I haven’t in a number of years; the only reason I was
at the store this year was because I went to dinner at Tyson’s beforehand.
Jeff
|
Jeff, Marc and all,
By all means, let’s have a frank, honest, transparent and civil discussion about
this stuff now.
My understanding is that the public days bring in (a projected amount of) money
that helps keeping registration at the level it is. Whether or not you like the
public expo element of the event, surely you recognize that without it, the
costs of running the event would be greater and ticket price would likely go up.
I’m not privy to the details of how other comparable conventions manage to
charge so little, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it involved corporate
sponsorship. While TLC has had an increased (and very much IMO welcomed)
presence at Brickfest over past years, I don’t think BrickFest should get to the
point where it becomes financially dependent on the company.
Jeff, as someone who is involved in anime fan community, if you could find out
how exactly they are able to keep costs low that would be useful. If there are
any ways to make this kind of event cheaper, (short of corprorate sponsorhip)
that BF organizers are unaware of, then let’s try to find out about them.
I realize that not everyone can afford to attend BrickFest but I don’t think
that $60 for a three day event is expensive at all. In the hands of less
competant, or more financially motivated organizers, an event like this could
easily cost a couple of hundred bucks.
Magnus
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In lugnet.events, Magnus Lauglo wrote:
| |
Jeff, Marc and all,
By all means, let’s have a frank, honest, transparent and civil discussion
about this stuff now.
My understanding is that the public days bring in (a projected amount of)
money that helps keeping registration at the level it is. Whether or not you
like the public expo element of the event, surely you recognize that without
it, the costs of running the event would be greater and ticket price would
likely go up.
|
I’m not convinced of this at all. My estimations of the amount of money coming
in does not match up with information I have been able to glean on costs. I am
not privy to the financial details, and could be wrong, but I still have my
suspicions.
| |
I’m not privy to the details of how other comparable conventions manage to
charge so little, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it involved corporate
sponsorship. While TLC has had an increased (and very much IMO welcomed)
presence at Brickfest over past years, I don’t think BrickFest should get to
the point where it becomes financially dependent on the company.
Jeff, as someone who is involved in anime fan community, if you could find
out how exactly they are able to keep costs low that would be useful. If
there are any ways to make this kind of event cheaper, (short of corprorate
sponsorhip) that BF organizers are unaware of, then let’s try to find out
about them.
I realize that not everyone can afford to attend BrickFest but I don’t think
that $60 for a three day event is expensive at all. In the hands of less
competant, or more financially motivated organizers, an event like this could
easily cost a couple of hundred bucks.
|
Only large anime conventions can get corporate sponsorship/donations, and even
then it is a small percentage of total income. The anime studios suffering
financial difficulties right now for the most part, so even those are lower now,
as I understand it. The major sources of income are registration fees (full
price normally about $45-$55, but pre-registration fees can be as low as $35)
and dealer’s room fees, which tend to run between $100 and $1000 depending on
the size of the convention. BF charged $15-20. T-shirts, pins, buttons, etc.
are pretty much a negligble source of income. Many anime conventions run in the
red for the first few years, although that may be changing since now even the
smallest conventions generally get 750-1250 attendees.
The major expenses of anime conventions are the venue, equipment rentals, and
guests. In the past, the GMU site has been dirt cheap for us, and I know we
were comp’ed at least some of the venue space at the Sheraton this year.
Equipment is very costly for anime conventions, because they need to rent AV
equipment for every room (4-8 rooms for smaller conventions, upwards of 20 for
larger), including projectors, speakers, DVD players, largescreen televisions,
etc. BF had one or two projectors (and couldn’t have really used more than four
or five), plus at least one person brought their own this year, and I brought
one last year, but these were for specific uses, not geneal allocation. Anime
conventions don’t have anything like a public day, so they don’t get that sort
of income. I’d estimate it brought in about the same amount as regular
membership did at BF, give or take 10%. The other major expense is guests.
They pay for the flights, room (including usually at least one extra day for
siteseeing), and meals. I have no information on whether BF did this or not,
but I suspect Lego paid for all Lego employees. If BF *did* pay for any guests,
I hope it was no more than the keynote speaker, since the event (IMO) is not
large enough to support a lot of guests.
In addition to that, the convention does pay for the hotel rooms of staff and
volunteers (who are frequently packed 4 to a room to save money). Staff and
volunteers also get in free since they are generally there working rather than
enjoying themselves. One of the ways many younger attendees have been able to
afford it is by volunteering, which allows them to save the expense of reg and
room, but they have to work for 8 hours each day (usually running video rooms or
acting as gophers). BF had nothing like this. All volunteers and theme
coordinators had to pay registration and the cost of the room, unless they were
local or made other arrangements.
Finally, absolutely no reputable anime convention pays any sort of compensation
to the staffmembers or conchair. Every anime con staffer I’ve spoken to has
gotten a look of disgust on their face when that is mentioned. There are many
reasons people staff anime conventions (usually love of the hobby or to be an
important member of the community), but money is not one of the reasons.
Recieving any sort of salary or wage, IMO, amounts pretty much to embezzling and
if I ever confirmed it was happening at any convention I attend, I would
immediately stop.
Jeff
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
snip
| |
6. One of the main things is not to be afraid to charge enough for
registration to cover the costs of the event. Going to a real BrickFest
Convention is a big deal. It really blows my mind that people actually
complain about the cost of the registration. Somehow they come up with
enough money to spend hundreds at the LEGO Store, and yet complain about
$20/day for the registration. Gimme a break. The cost of the registration is
less than most large LEGO kits.
|
I guess I’m one of those people - not that I complained, I just didn’t go
because I couldn’t afford it. The last BF I went to (in ‘04), I probably
spent around $125 total for registration, t-shirts, and bricks, and I doubt
I’ve ever spent more than $200 at a BF. So I’m not complaining just to
complain, the cost is actually a dealbreaker for me. I was hoping to
volunteer at this year’s event and attend at a free or reduced rate, but I
was told that volunteers had to pay full price for registration.
Is it really a problem that BF isn’t charging enough for registration? By my
math, BF took in about $24K from registration fees and $21K from the public,
plus a few bucks from merchandise sales and seller fees, but lets say $45K
total. If the exhibit space was free with the room reservations, what do you
need all that money for? My wife does a lot of event planning for a
nonprofit, and she couldn’t figure it out.
I’m sorry if anyone takes offense at these questions, but I know other AFOLs
are asking the same thing.
Marc Nelson Jr.
|
What about the literally thousands of hours that Christina has given of her time
to get the thing going--along with all the other dedicated volunteers in the
past, and the hundreds of hours Joe spent this year to pull it all together. To
truly create a stable growing institution, which is what BrickFest seems to be
becoming, the persons taking the risks and doing the planning cannot be expected
to not be compensated, in my opinion. When BrickFest started, it was very much
an idea of a group of like minded people coming together --but it really has
evolved to something larger. Heck when the Owner of LEGO comes along with the
CEO as was the case last year, and the CEO and a contingent of 30 LEGO employees
come this year, it is pretty big time. When you see the tens of thousands of
hours that the builders have put into their incredible creations, it is really
really big time. I just have to say thank you Joe for pulling off such an event
this year, and Christian et al for building such a great foundation. Very few
places in the world can one come for a measly 20$ per day and experience some of
the very best of the best that all you builders have created.
And it is not just the exhibition, of course, but the various seminars, the
comraderie of very individualistic people united around a common passion.
Volunteerism is great and in most cases a necessity for getting an idea off the
ground, but to make it evolve it has to have some sort of financial integrity
also. The amount of administration and coordination to take it to a new level is
really immense and I do not begrudge whatsover if Christina in the past (and
future) or Joe this year and whoever coordinates next year gets compensated for
their efforts.
Christina has taken this “thing” to a world class convention--something almost
unique in the world. People from 11 different contries as well as some 30 states
attended this year. A credit to her vision and hard work in the past. And this
year Joe carried on well and took it up a notch. I am sure that next year
another notch in the gear will be reached-at least I hope so.
Kudos to all who have made this event something well worth attending.
Tommy Armstrong
PS I really really liked the free food combined with a specific time for the
judging and viewing of the exhibits. I thought that really went off well, and
hope it continues. I did not meet a single person who complained about that.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
| |
What about the literally thousands of hours that Christina has given of her
time to get the thing going--along with all the other dedicated volunteers in
the past, and the hundreds of hours Joe spent this year to pull it all
together. To truly create a stable growing institution, which is what
BrickFest seems to be becoming, the persons taking the risks and doing the
planning cannot be expected to not be compensated, in my opinion. When
BrickFest started, it was very much an idea of a group of like minded people
coming together --but it really has evolved to something larger. Heck when
the Owner of LEGO comes along with the CEO as was the case last year, and the
CEO and a contingent of 30 LEGO employees come this year, it is pretty big
time. When you see the tens of thousands of hours that the builders have put
into their incredible creations, it is really really big time. I just have to
say thank you Joe for pulling off such an event this year, and Christian et
al for building such a great foundation. Very few places in the world can one
come for a measly 20$ per day and experience some of the very best of the
best that all you builders have created.
And it is not just the exhibition, of course, but the various seminars, the
comraderie of very individualistic people united around a common passion.
Volunteerism is great and in most cases a necessity for getting an idea off
the ground, but to make it evolve it has to have some sort of financial
integrity also. The amount of administration and coordination to take it to a
new level is really immense and I do not begrudge whatsover if Christina in
the past (and future) or Joe this year and whoever coordinates next year gets
compensated for their efforts.
Christina has taken this “thing” to a world class convention--something
almost unique in the world. People from 11 different contries as well as some
30 states attended this year. A credit to her vision and hard work in the
past. And this year Joe carried on well and took it up a notch. I am sure
that next year another notch in the gear will be reached-at least I hope so.
Kudos to all who have made this event something well worth attending.
Tommy Armstrong
PS I really really liked the free food combined with a specific time for the
judging and viewing of the exhibits. I thought that really went off well, and
hope it continues. I did not meet a single person who complained about that.
|
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off of
the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the case this
year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
Yes, there are groups making money off of Brickfest - the hotels, the brick
bazaar sellers, etc. But Brickfest itself is supposed to be about the
comraderie, as you said. Quite honestly I can’t see how any one person spends
thousands of man hours on putting a single Brickfest together - all of the
events are fan-driven with the exception of the big group meeting/LEGO Q&A.
Yeah, I’m sure there’s plenty of behind-the-scenes stuff, but last I looked
every theme had its’ own volunteer organizer(s), so that just leaves organizing
the event as a whole.
No, I refuse to go to Brickfest if it’s no longer a passion of the heart alone.
Flame me if you’d like, but its just the way I feel. Christina has worked very
hard, as Joe has too, I’m sure (I wasn’t there but I know Joe and he’s a good
guy). But hard work or not, I’m not going to be part and parcel to paying them
for me to have a place to put up my work. I’m willing to reimburse them for the
cost of the space, but that’s as far as I’ll go - I’m not going to fill anyone’s
pocket just for the right to attend a hobby event.
--Anthony
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off of
the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the case
this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes? Unless
the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall BrickFest ever
being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final destination of registration
fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough to keep it happening year after
year.
I’ve spent considerable sums over the years to fly cross-country to attend these
events, but even if it was next door, I’d still be fine paying registration
fees. Which, by the way, I don’t find outrageous by any means.
Anyone objecting strenuously to registration fees of less than $100 per person
should take a look at business-related convention/conference fees (add a zero
and keep going).
Kelly
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In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall BrickFest
ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final destination of
registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough to keep it
happening year after year.
I’ve spent considerable sums over the years to fly cross-country to attend
these events, but even if it was next door, I’d still be fine paying
registration fees. Which, by the way, I don’t find outrageous by any means.
Anyone objecting strenuously to registration fees of less than $100 per
person should take a look at business-related convention/conference fees (add
a zero and keep going).
Kelly
|
Yes, it matters to me where the money goes. Why?
What do *I* get out of brickfest? I get discounted LEGO, see new LEGO products,
display my stuff, see other people’s stuff and talk to other LEGO fans.
Cheap LEGO - I can always get a friend who is going to pick stuff up for me if
I’m that desperate for LEGO.
See new products - all new products won’t be available for immediate purchase,
and 75% of them are revealed to the public before or after the event either
through official or pirate channels.
Display my models - all my models are online.
See other models - most all models are online too.
Talk to other LEGO fans - my personality seems to grate on other people so much
that the only people who will talk to me are the people who already know me.
How do they already know me? I talk to them online almost every day. Heaven
help me if I try to talk to a Spacer or a train guy.
So... I don’t get enough out of Brickfest to make it worth my while to go if I
know that my registration fee is not a simple reembursement of the cost of
running the event.
--Anthony
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall
BrickFest ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final
destination of registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough
to keep it happening year after year.
|
Yes, it matters to me where the money goes. Why?
What do *I* get out of brickfest? I get discounted LEGO, see new LEGO
products, display my stuff, see other people’s stuff and talk to other LEGO
fans.
snip
So... I don’t get enough out of Brickfest to make it worth my while to go if
I know that my registration fee is not a simple reembursement of the cost of
running the event.
|
I’m not following your reasoning linking what you feel you get (or don’t get)
and where your money goes. Nevertheless. To make a simple comparison, do you eat
at a fast-food restaurant, knowing that your money is not covering just the
cost of the ingredients?
There’s no difference between handing your money to a pimply-faced 15-year-old
burger slinger and forking over $60 to attend BrickFest. You receive value for
either one, hopefully in proportion to the amount paid. What happens to that
money afterwards is irrelevant to you, since it’s no longer yours. You traded
it for something.
This is called “economics”.
To back up to another thing brought up, one of the things I recall Joe talking
about when he began setting up BrickFest ‘06 was that he also wondered where the
money went, and wanted his event to be more transparent. I’m sure he’ll welcome
this opportunity to provide numbers, when he gets a chance.
Kelly
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall
BrickFest ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final
destination of registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough
to keep it happening year after year.
|
Yes, it matters to me where the money goes. Why?
What do *I* get out of brickfest? I get discounted LEGO, see new LEGO
products, display my stuff, see other people’s stuff and talk to other LEGO
fans.
snip
So... I don’t get enough out of Brickfest to make it worth my while to go if
I know that my registration fee is not a simple reembursement of the cost of
running the event.
|
I’m not following your reasoning linking what you feel you get (or don’t get)
and where your money goes. Nevertheless. To make a simple comparison, do you
eat at a fast-food restaurant, knowing that your money is not covering just
the cost of the ingredients?
There’s no difference between handing your money to a pimply-faced
15-year-old burger slinger and forking over $60 to attend BrickFest. You
receive value for either one, hopefully in proportion to the amount paid.
What happens to that money afterwards is irrelevant to you, since it’s no
longer yours. You traded it for something.
This is called “economics”.
To back up to another thing brought up, one of the things I recall Joe
talking about when he began setting up BrickFest ‘06 was that he also
wondered where the money went, and wanted his event to be more transparent.
I’m sure he’ll welcome this opportunity to provide numbers, when he gets a
chance.
|
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still being
worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown of costs
based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would rather wait
until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
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In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still being
worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown of costs
based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would rather
wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
|
Very cool Joe,
Kudo’s for your transparency. As I mentioned, it is my desire to find a
way to attend regardless, but it is nice to know where my $ would be going.
Karl
PS For those of us who would have to fly in, The cost of tickets is a much
higher concern than the registration fee.
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In lugnet.events, Karl Paulsen wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still
being worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown
of costs based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would
rather wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
|
Very cool Joe,
Kudo’s for your transparency. As I mentioned, it is my desire to find a
way to attend regardless, but it is nice to know where my $ would be going.
Karl
PS For those of us who would have to fly in, The cost of tickets is a much
higher concern than the registration fee.
|
And for those of us who would have to sleep somewhere, the cost of a hotel room
is likely to be at least as big a concern as the plane ticket to get there.
And we all have to eat for 3 or 4 days. That pretty much equals the cost of
$20/day registration.
If Joe or Christina (or anyone else) got paid this year (I don’t *think* they
did), good for them! :)
Steve
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| |
|
Steve Bliss wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Karl Paulsen wrote:
> > In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
> > > I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still
> > > being worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown
> > > of costs based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would
> > > rather wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
> > >
> > > Joe
> >
> > Very cool Joe,
> > Kudo's for your transparency. As I mentioned, it is my desire to find a
> > way to attend regardless, but it is nice to know where my $ would be going.
> >
> > Karl
> >
> > PS For those of us who would have to fly in, The cost of tickets is a much
> > higher concern than the registration fee.
>
> And for those of us who would have to sleep somewhere, the cost of a hotel room
> is likely to be at least as big a concern as the plane ticket to get there.
>
> And we all have to eat for 3 or 4 days. That pretty much equals the cost of
> $20/day registration.
Yeah, I mean geez, I spent almost $125 on gas for the 2250 miles of
driving I did to/from/around BF, so the $60 in reg was piddling.
Not to mention I saved more than the reg fees Thurs night at the Lego
store by far ;-)
And the buffet during the voting absolutely *rocked*. Great buffet, and
saved me time driving around figuring what to get for dinner.
--
Tom Stangl
* http://www.vfaq.com/
* DSM Visual FAQ home
* 90 Talon AWD
* http://www.vfaq.net/
* Prius Visual FAQ Home
* 04 Prius AM #7
* 06 Prius NL #7
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In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still being
worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown of costs
based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would rather
wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
|
Thanks for letting us know, Joe. Personally, I’m not concerned about it - from
my perspective, any profit from BF’06 is yours to do with as you please. I
wouldn’t care if you took a vacation to Tahiti with it, or blew it on horse
racing. (Not that I think you would.)
To put it in perspective: I’ve spent hundreds of hours over the last several
years working as webmaster of BrickFest.com, and never received a penny, and I
don’t expect to. And that’s fine, because money isn’t why I did it. And with all
the work that went into organizing ‘06, I’m pretty confident Joe didn’t do it
for the money either. But amassing a war chest for another project is always a
good thing, too.
Kelly
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In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
> I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still being
> worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown of costs
> based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would rather
> wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
>
> Joe
Joe, thanks for the info-note. I'm honestly one of those who believe that
organizers should be compensated, at least 100% of their expenses (including
mileage, phone, plane, etc), but I also hope that Brickfest can start
maintaining a "cash reserve" which would be very helpful in getting things
underway in the future--starting arrangements well before people start tendering
funds, given how many people like to put off writing that check (like me)!
LFB
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In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
|
snip...
| |
| |
To back up to another thing brought up, one of the things I recall Joe
talking about when he began setting up BrickFest ‘06 was that he also
wondered where the money went, and wanted his event to be more transparent.
I’m sure he’ll welcome this opportunity to provide numbers, when he gets a
chance.
|
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still being
worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown of costs
based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would rather
wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
|
Hi Joe,
I was wondering if this ever happened? I cannot seem to find any posts to that
effect. It could probably be of use to all of those planning several new events
this year in the fact that they will have a point of reference. Not to mention
educate the community at large.
Thanks,
Jude
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In lugnet.events, Jude Beaudin wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
|
snip...
| |
| |
To back up to another thing brought up, one of the things I recall Joe
talking about when he began setting up BrickFest ‘06 was that he also
wondered where the money went, and wanted his event to be more transparent.
I’m sure he’ll welcome this opportunity to provide numbers, when he gets a
chance.
|
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still
being worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown
of costs based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I would
rather wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
|
Hi Joe,
I was wondering if this ever happened? I cannot seem to find any posts to
that effect. It could probably be of use to all of those planning several new
events this year in the fact that they will have a point of reference. Not to
mention educate the community at large.
Thanks,
Jude
|
This never happened because I never got complete bookkeeping from our financial
person. However, I can give you the following information off the top of my
head:
BrickFest 2006 got its space by working out a deal with the hotel. For x number
of room-nights, we got the space. If we didn’t make the goal, we would have to
pay up to a maximum of $8000 for space (this was if we didn’t make 50% of room
nights) In this particular case, the convention made 150% of goal and as a
result, the hotel was VERY happy to work with us.
Registration fees went to various aspects of the convention that we were aware
of in planning. I did get a breakdown of the registration fee from the financial
person:
Out of a $60 registration fee:
Dinner: $15
AMH fee: $7.50
Name Badge: $5
Bag: $3
Program: $2
Event insurance: $4
Security: $3
Shuttle bus $2
Printing/supplies: $3
A/V Rental $6
Prizes $2
Paypal/bank fees $6
This adds up to $54.50 estimated*, which gave a small cushion going into the
event, which was good because, as we entered the convention pretty much even or
in the black, we incurred $9500 of additional fees for various things that were
used in the hotel.
The total profit that went to BrickJournal Media LLC was about $13,000. This is
in addition to the $3,000 that went to AMH Productions for use of the BrickFest
name, as determined by an agreement that was signed in December 2005. It should
be noted that this profit came from public day reciepts.
Volunteers were given thank you gifts for being part of BrickFest 2006.
Some points of advice:
The best place to go for a convention of the size of a BrickFest is a hotel with
convention facilities, as the room nights can be leveraged against the space
charges. BrickFest 2006 did not have to put up any money at any time for the
space we used, and that was because we made our room goals.
The next biggest priority is event insurance - all it takes is one bad incident,
and that can sink everything. In this particular area, make sure you make a
distinction between exhibitors and vendors - this WILL affect the final
insurance cost.
Make the event as self-sufficient as possible. BrickFest 2006 was VERY fortunate
because of the groundwork that was set by the financial person and other people
who stepped in with advice when it was needed.
If you want to find a bunch of hotels fast, contact the local convention bureau
- they can find you options to work with and also promotional support.
It’s not easy to do an event, but it can be fun. And I’m one of the lucky people
to say that I had a fun time setting up an event. And if you have any more
questions, drop me a line.
Joe (who has been consideringthis as a story for BrickJournal, actually)
PS - On a side note, my job since July has been working on BrickJournal and
events. So yes, the money from BrickFest has been supporting the magazine -
Issue 5 and 6 would not have been done without it!
- This is estimated because some of the registrations were comped, such as the LEGO staff.
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In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Jude Beaudin wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Joe Meno wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
|
snip...
| |
| |
To back up to another thing brought up, one of the things I recall Joe
talking about when he began setting up BrickFest ‘06 was that he also
wondered where the money went, and wanted his event to be more
transparent. I’m sure he’ll welcome this opportunity to provide numbers,
when he gets a chance.
|
I will have a chance at the beginning of October. Some things are still
being worked out, such as taxes and fees. I already have a rough breakdown
of costs based on registration, but there is some undefined info, so I
would rather wait until I get the books from the financial staff.
Joe
|
Hi Joe,
I was wondering if this ever happened? I cannot seem to find any posts to
that effect. It could probably be of use to all of those planning several
new events this year in the fact that they will have a point of reference.
Not to mention educate the community at large.
Thanks,
Jude
|
This never happened because I never got complete bookkeeping from our
financial person. However, I can give you the following information off the
top of my head:
BrickFest 2006 got its space by working out a deal with the hotel. For x
number of room-nights, we got the space. If we didn’t make the goal, we would
have to pay up to a maximum of $8000 for space (this was if we didn’t make
50% of room nights) In this particular case, the convention made 150% of goal
and as a result, the hotel was VERY happy to work with us.
Registration fees went to various aspects of the convention that we were
aware of in planning. I did get a breakdown of the registration fee from the
financial person:
Out of a $60 registration fee:
Dinner: $15
AMH fee: $7.50
Name Badge: $5
Bag: $3
Program: $2
Event insurance: $4
Security: $3
Shuttle bus $2
Printing/supplies: $3
A/V Rental $6
Prizes $2
Paypal/bank fees $6
This adds up to $54.50 estimated*, which gave a small cushion going into the
event, which was good because, as we entered the convention pretty much even
or in the black, we incurred $9500 of additional fees for various things that
were used in the hotel.
The total profit that went to BrickJournal Media LLC was about $13,000. This
is in addition to the $3,000 that went to AMH Productions for use of the
BrickFest name, as determined by an agreement that was signed in December
2005. It should be noted that this profit came from public day reciepts.
Volunteers were given thank you gifts for being part of BrickFest 2006.
Some points of advice:
The best place to go for a convention of the size of a BrickFest is a hotel
with convention facilities, as the room nights can be leveraged against the
space charges. BrickFest 2006 did not have to put up any money at any time
for the space we used, and that was because we made our room goals.
The next biggest priority is event insurance - all it takes is one bad
incident, and that can sink everything. In this particular area, make sure
you make a distinction between exhibitors and vendors - this WILL affect the
final insurance cost.
Make the event as self-sufficient as possible. BrickFest 2006 was VERY
fortunate because of the groundwork that was set by the financial person and
other people who stepped in with advice when it was needed.
If you want to find a bunch of hotels fast, contact the local convention
bureau - they can find you options to work with and also promotional support.
It’s not easy to do an event, but it can be fun. And I’m one of the lucky
people to say that I had a fun time setting up an event. And if you have any
more questions, drop me a line.
Joe (who has been consideringthis as a story for BrickJournal, actually)
PS - On a side note, my job since July has been working on BrickJournal and
events. So yes, the money from BrickFest has been supporting the magazine -
Issue 5 and 6 would not have been done without it!
- This is estimated because some of the registrations were comped, such as the LEGO staff.
|
I’ve had quite of a few people ping me directly regarding Joe’s post about the
registration fees for Brickfest ’06. Rather than reply personally to everyone
(and to re-direct future inquiries), I thought I should clarify my past and
current role with BrickJournal and BrickFest.
Yes, I was co-coordinator of the event, but am no longer associated with the
event.
Yes, I was Executive Editor of Brickjournal, but am no longer involved with
BrickJournal
I know many of you have questions about BrickJournal and BrickFest, but it’s
best to direct those to Joe Meno directly, since I am no longer involved with
any business venture/idea with Joe.
I wish Joe all the best.
- Jim F.
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In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall
BrickFest ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final
destination of registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough
to keep it happening year after year.
|
Yes, it matters to me where the money goes. Why?
What do *I* get out of brickfest? I get discounted LEGO, see new LEGO
products, display my stuff, see other people’s stuff and talk to other LEGO
fans.
snip
So... I don’t get enough out of Brickfest to make it worth my while to go if
I know that my registration fee is not a simple reembursement of the cost of
running the event.
|
I’m not following your reasoning linking what you feel you get (or don’t get)
and where your money goes. Nevertheless. To make a simple comparison, do you
eat at a fast-food restaurant, knowing that your money is not covering just
the cost of the ingredients?
There’s no difference between handing your money to a pimply-faced
15-year-old burger slinger and forking over $60 to attend BrickFest. You
receive value for either one, hopefully in proportion to the amount paid.
What happens to that money afterwards is irrelevant to you, since it’s no
longer yours. You traded it for something.
This is called “economics”.
To back up to another thing brought up, one of the things I recall Joe
talking about when he began setting up BrickFest ‘06 was that he also
wondered where the money went, and wanted his event to be more transparent.
I’m sure he’ll welcome this opportunity to provide numbers, when he gets a
chance.
Kelly
|
I don’t work for the restaurant when I eat there. Thus this is not a valid
comparison.
Let’s look at it this way: A regular venue, say, a business expo, the attendees
are there for personal gain. They pay their entry fee and do their business
with profit in mind, whether it be selling their widget, making contacts or
buying a widget for their widget machine. Everyone’s happy.
However.
The Brickfest organizers put on this expo where they invite all these AFOLs to
attend their event. Why do the AFOLs come? Not for profit. They come to share
ideas, visit with friends and show off their creations.
Now let’s say for the sake of argument that the Brickfest organizers are making
a profit from Brickfest. Brickfest has now become no better than a zoo.
Brickfest invites AFOLs to attend. They pay their dues, part of which, as we’ve
decided for arguments sake goes right into the organizer’s pocket. Certain
AFOLs then decide to take on even more responsibility and volunteer their
services to do the Brickfest organizer’s job in organizing the different themes
of the event for no compensation.
And then Brickfest invites the public, who also pay their dues, to come see
what? The AFOLs creations, which would not be there if the AFOLs had not come.
So the public pays their dues, comes in and looks at all the animals in their
cages, I mean, AFOLs and their creations. A for-profit organization in this
situation is getting money from three sources: The public, The exihibits, and
the help (by saving money by not paying the help).
In essence, the attending AFOLs are making money for the Brickfest organizers
without making money for themselves. They are a perverted combination of zoo
exhibit, natural resource and employee.
A not-for-profit organization, however, would be getting a boost of
reembursement from the public, as well as reenbursement from the exhibits, and a
load off their backs by getting volunteer help.
The difference is a side-show versus a public exhibition.
That is my reasoning. Agree with it or not, you won’t change my mind.
--Anthony
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Anthony Wrote:
| |
However.
The Brickfest organizers put on this expo where they invite all these AFOLs
to attend their event. Why do the AFOLs come? Not for profit. They come to
share ideas, visit with friends and show off their creations.
|
You are absolutely correct to this point
| |
Now let’s say for the sake of argument that the Brickfest organizers are
making a profit from Brickfest. Brickfest has now become no better than a
zoo.
|
Well to many, including myself, a well run zoo is a cultural resource that has
value and needs to be sustained and nurtured. Literally thousands of people
volunteer their time and money to make them possible. All the way from vets to
sales clerks. So perhaps I do like your analogy. But to really make it a well
run zoo; one that cares for the needs of the animals and the public, you need a
director--and in all well run zoos, that means compensating the director.
Go into a zoo, and you will find volunteers working at all sorts of jobs. Just
as in Art Museums, and every other kind of museum or historical building. Why,
because they believe in it. My mother was a docent for 40 years at the
governor’s mansion--why--she wanted to help.
The more I think of it, the better the analogy works. Most zoos and museums have
membership dues if one wants to contribute. Those dues help fund the zoo, and
give the members some added benefits--such as special behind the scenes tours,
discounts, etc.
In many ways BrickFest is the same thing--the dues give you access to the
lectures and presentations which from what I gather are not only getting better
and better but also very well received. And for many, the 25% discount at Tysons
Corner Store more than paid for the registration fee. One NXT at discount saved
the whole registration fee.
As far as I know, it is not a requirement for one to register to exhibit. If it
is, then, I probably have a problem with that.
| |
Certain AFOLs then decide to take on even more responsibility and volunteer
their services to do the Brickfest organizer’s job in organizing the
different themes of the event for no compensation.
|
Which they do of their own free-will. No coercion involved. They want to see the
event succeed. Just as volunteers at say the History Museum want to make it
succeed.
| |
And then Brickfest invites the public, who also pay their dues, to come see
what? The AFOLs creations, which would not be there if the AFOLs had not
come.
|
The same is true for a museum or zoo--they come to see works of art or animals
that were almost always donated to the museum.
| |
A for-profit organization in
this situation is getting money from three sources: The public, The
exihibits, and the help (by saving money by not paying the help).
|
We are not necessarily talking about a for-profit organization--just not a
completely volunteer organization.
| |
In essence, the attending AFOLs are making money for the Brickfest organizers
without making money for themselves.
|
No, they are partaking in the experience that they deemed to be of value and
understand that there are financial obligations that need to be met in order for
the experience to take place. Yep--just like going to a zoo.
| |
They are a perverted combination of zoo
exhibit, natural resource and employee.
|
maybe--but leave out the “perverted”. And it is not really the AFOL’s that are
the exhibit (unless they want to be)--it is their creations that are the
exhibits.
| |
The difference is a side-show versus a public exhibition.
|
There is no “public exhibition” that I know of of any quality that does not
incur expenses that have to be paid--
| |
That is my reasoning. Agree with it or not, you won’t change my mind.
|
I am not really trying to, but think your analogy of a zoo is not bad.
I, myself am not anti-zoo.
Tommy Armstrong
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They are a perverted combination of zoo
exhibit, natural resource and employee.
|
maybe--but leave out the “perverted”. And it is not really the AFOL’s that
are the exhibit (unless they want to be)--it is their creations that are the
exhibits.
|
“Kids, they are going to call you America’s most valuable natural resource.
Have you seen what they do to valuable natural resources? The’re going to strip
mine your souls...”
a nice quote from (Bruce) U. Utah Phillips
Frankly, though...it comes down to the fact that there are costs associated with
the whole event. At some point, and I think Brickfest has passed this point,
there is “professional” services being provided, and the organizers are no
longer volunteers, but have to pay themselves from the income to cover the costs
of organizing the whole thing. Assuming that this pay is not excessive, then I
don’t see a big problem with it...and excessive in my mind would mean that the
fest sucked, and the organizers are spending not a lot of time organizing it.
(in which case, it is doomed anyway...)
People have lost a fair amount of their own money running some of the cons, and
it is not as easy a go as some people think it is.
James Powell
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
I’m only going to speak (type?) for myself here. I came... because it was fun. A
*lot* of fun. And I learned an amazing amount of things, and was deeply inspired
by a lot of the things I saw (interpretation: I will steal a lot of cool ideas
from the rest of you ;-).
| |
Now let’s say for the sake of argument that
the Brickfest organizers are making a profit
from Brickfest. Brickfest has now become no
better than a zoo.
|
Huh. Well, I’d say, for the sake of argument, that if your analysis was true...
I’d still gladly pay $20 a day for the privledge of attending. After all, I do
that for the Chicago museums & aquarium... all of which cost more than that. I
do it for family trips to Disney... which is much more than that, and I come
back with far less inspiration.
| |
Certain AFOLs then decide to take on even more
responsibility and volunteer their services to
do the Brickfest organizer’s job in organizing
the different themes of the event for no
compensation.
|
As one of those volunteers... yes, and I’d do it again, and I HAD A BLAST doing
it!! I also, by virtue of being a volunteer, now have a better idea of what the
organizers on the level above me do. And as others have said far better than I,
it’s an amazing, mind-numbing amount of work.
| |
That is my reasoning. Agree with it or not, you
won’t change my mind.
|
Fair enough. I prefer continued reasoning, discussion, and keeping an open mind,
especially about situations where I have evidence that I don’t have all the
facts. But that’s just me.
Oh, and jumping to parallel threads (sorry)... Marc wrote:
% Would people be so eager to lug 50 lbs. of
% MOCs to BF if they thought they were padding
% someone’s profit margin?
Well, I guess that argument could be made for me as well, substituting “time and
money” for “luging 50 lbs of MOCs”. Lately, I’ve spent a large amount of my
personal money, and an insane amount of my time, to help a large profit-making
corporation to try to make their product more successful... in other words, I’ve
essentially given away my hard work and time to increase somebody elses profit
margin, while recieving almost no compensation in return.
The company, by the way, is LEGO. The product is the NXT, and I’ve been working
on the MUP or MDP for months and months. Why?
Because It’s Fun. PERIOD.
--
Brian Davis
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In lugnet.events, Brian Davis wrote:
| |
The company, by the way, is LEGO. The product is the NXT, and I’ve been
working on the MUP or MDP for months and months. Why?
Because It’s Fun. PERIOD.
|
As someone would has built a career on trying to understand why
consumers/users/fans volunteer to help out the brands they love, this is a
fascinating discussion!
In order for the process of collaboration to work,
what has to happen? Everbody say it with me now...
“Everybody goes home happy”
Finding the balance is the key to making this happen. When the balance is off,
there’s problem for both sides. As others have mentioned, there’s a ton of
examples where both non-profits and for-profits have excited their
consumers/users/fans into working together with them, much to the success and
excitement of both sides of the fence. There are entire books and http://www.churchofthecustomer.com that highlight examples of this. There’s
even a term for it: Citizen Marketing.
Anthony, I can understand your core
point (as I understand it) - that you believe that corporate entities that use
volunteers to help them build a business are doing something wrong.
But this
isn’t an issue of whether such a thing is right or wrong. It’s about whether the
balance for both sides is correct. When the balance is off, the relationship is
problematic for both sides. If volunteers are getting an emotional connection
from volunteering that makes them feel emotionally satisified, who cares what
the business effect is? Personally, I happily give my time away to companies to
help them make money. That’s not why I volunteer, of course, but it’s the side
effect. Some examples:
- I beta test software because I want to help make a
better product for myself and for others. I’ve been beta testing the latest
Battlefield 2142 build, for free, happily, because I’d like to do my part to
help Dice/EA create something wonderful for me and my friends to play.
- I
help offer ideas to the Battlefield 2 Combat gaming system (a paid in process,
run by a company) because I know that the more I pitch in, the more fun the
system will be. There’s a company running the overall system, not something I
can or want to do, which makes me willing to pay for the service. But I pitch in
where I can because I can, and because I want to.
- I’ve spoken for free at a
number of large conferences run by companies or conference companies, simply
because I wanted to help out, to spread a message. I knew full well that the
conference organizers were making a pretty penny on the event. I knew that my
name (or more specifically the LEGO name) on the marquee might help pull in a
few extra people and in turn earn extra money.
Or how about a few
non-personal examples:
* The Fiskar Ambassadors
or Adobe Community Experts
* The
501st Legion (Sure they’re volunteering, but they’re
also helping Lucas directly
* Snakes on a Plane - how much volunteering was
done to help spread the word about this movie?
* Homemade Apple commercials
* SXSW conference - every year there’s a ton of volunteers who help the paid
support staff run the event.
All of these activities and
many more are undertaken by normal people,
not associated with those corporate entities because that’s how they enjoy
spending their free time. As Kelly put it earlier, what’s the value you get out
of what you’re putting in (time, money, etc.)? If you’re happy with the value
exchange, what’s the problem?
On a related note, personally, I’d LOVE to see
someone/some group take on BrickFest as a full-time gig. The BrickFest team over
the years has done an amazing job, especially considering all of them have day
jobs. At the end of the day, however, trying to run a large scale event in your
free time hours is a governor on the overall potential of the event. When the
event gets to a point where venue size grows dramatically, who handles the extra
logistics? How do insurance issues get resolved? Who is finding larger sponsors?
It’s a bit unfair and unrealistic to place that kind of burden on volunteers
alone, or to expect/require that the key person/people should be inherently
restricted from being able make a full-time gig out of the process.
Now, that
said, if a future BrickFest full-timer is, to Kelly’s point, driving up in a
Ferrari and skipping management duties that are then passed down to the
volunteers, then there’s a problem. But this is a balance problem - everbody is
NOT going home happy. And guess what! The balance will be achieve through
complaints, or the system will crash and/or rebuild somewhere else.
In some
ways, isn’t that what we’re all searching for - some job that is so amazing and
fun to do, that we can’t believe we’re actually able to do it and put food on
the table at the same time? I’d absolutely LOVE to see Christina be able to get
to a point where she could do nothing but plan BrickFest for a living. Imagine
the possibilities!
Anthony, I know you said you wouldn’t change your mind, but I think the
coversation overall is one worthy of trying to start a in-depth discussion.
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Webmaster - BIP
Private Citizen
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|
Well, agree or not, Anthony's making a valid point. Some AFOLs may feel used or
exploited if the event is a for-profit one, while others don't mind, so long as
they get their money's worth.
I think the problem is that people don't know. I guess that's kind of disturbing
in retrospect, and it would be nice if we could have some insight from Christina
about years past (or Joe about this year although I think he's already agreed to
make things more transparent, and commented in this thread on it already:
http://news.lugnet.com/events/?n=1876 ).
Personally, I don't mind if the organizers get compensated for their time, since
it's a HUGE effort on their part. But it would be nice to know that that
compensation isn't abused at the expense of future BrickFests. Essentially,
there's a difference between saying "I'm going to keep all the profit" and "I'll
compensate myself with up to $5,000 of the proceeds" and "I'll divide up 50% of
the profits between the main event coordinators". Or whatever. I'd like to know
that BrickFest as an entity is keeping a degree of its profits so that it can
continue to exist and grow.
Not that I'm terribly worried about it. I don't think Christina or Joe has
walked off with all the profit from these events. I've got pretty good
confidence that they've been honest and that if they *have* compensated
themselves with BrickFest funds, that it hasn't been outrageous and hasn't
sacrificed BrickFest's future. But, for those people out there like Anthony who
DO feel like they may be being used, I'm sure it would help to ease their minds
by making things more out in the open.
DaveE
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|
In lugnet.events, David Eaton wrote:
> Personally, I don't mind if the organizers get compensated for their time, since
> it's a HUGE effort on their part.
Nor do I. In fact, I encourage it. That means there's even more specific
motivation to make things bigger, better, more interesting, etc.
> But it would be nice to know that that
> compensation isn't abused at the expense of future BrickFests. Essentially,
> there's a difference between saying "I'm going to keep all the profit" and "I'll
> compensate myself with up to $5,000 of the proceeds" and "I'll divide up 50% of
> the profits between the main event coordinators". Or whatever. I'd like to know
> that BrickFest as an entity is keeping a degree of its profits so that it can
> continue to exist and grow.
Dave, excellent point.
> Not that I'm terribly worried about it. I don't think Christina or Joe has
> walked off with all the profit from these events. I've got pretty good
> confidence that they've been honest and that if they *have* compensated
> themselves with BrickFest funds, that it hasn't been outrageous and hasn't
> sacrificed BrickFest's future. But, for those people out there like Anthony who
> DO feel like they may be being used, I'm sure it would help to ease their minds
> by making things more out in the open.
I think the reality is that in the earlier days, there was barely enough money
left over (if any), so the issue was fairly irrelevant. But now that things are
getting bigger, maintaining balance requires an increased level of clarity. That
way attendees and volunteers alike can understand what they're getting into.
The best part of this discussion, however, is that we don't have to choose on or
the other. If you don't get what you want out of BrickFest, then put more effort
into your local club. Or take a page from the tech community's book, and start
up something like BarCamp (http://barcamp.org).
As the community continues to grow and fracture (a natural part of the
evolution), no single solution for anything will work for everybody. The great
thing about the community, the technology, and the hobby is how easy it is to
create new things.
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Webmaster - BIP
Private Citizen
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
Snip
| |
Let’s look at it this way: A regular venue, say, a business expo, the
attendees are there for personal gain. They pay their entry fee and do their
business with profit in mind, whether it be selling their widget, making
contacts or buying a widget for their widget machine. Everyone’s happy.
|
After lamblasting Anthony for his estimate of time, I would like to support him
a little on his arguement here. I think it is a little disengenous for an
organizer not to be upfront with where the money will go if there is a profit
left over.
I agree with others that have stipulated that they would attend even if a Joe or
Christina made money from the event. For my sensibilities, I want to know that
up front. I would rather not learn later that they had taken the money and run
with it rather than paying the bills, as has happened before such as BricksWest.
I would rather know that they intend to use the money for good, not evil.
I would also, as a volunteer, like to know that my efforts, my sweat equity was
going into someone else’s pocket. If this was known before hand, cerrtainly some
would agree to attend others would not. Some would agree to coordinate and
others would not.
I know as an attendee I would have a different expectation on the event if I
knew someone was being “paid” to organize. I let a lot of stuff slide when I
know a well intentioned, but poorly organized individual fails to pull something
off. I get irrate when someone that is being paid to do the work fails to follow
through and do something.
So, I can see Anthony’s point.
Sincerely,
Todd
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
After lamblasting Anthony for his estimate of time, I would like to support
him a little on his arguement here. I think it is a little disengenous for an
organizer not to be upfront with where the money will go if there is a profit
left over.
|
Why? Still not following the logic. As an attendee, I paid my money and received
value, and my hobby is being furthered by positive public attention. As a
volunteer, I get warm fuzzies and the adoration of my peers for participating in
such a cool event. What else is there? I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I still
haven’t really seen any reason for financial disclosure more compelling than,
“Because I want to know” or (worse) “Because I’m entitled to know.”
| |
I agree with others that have stipulated that they would attend even if a Joe
or Christina made money from the event. For my sensibilities, I want to know
that up front. I would rather not learn later that they had taken the money
and run with it rather than paying the bills, as has happened before such as
BricksWest. I would rather know that they intend to use the money for good,
not evil.
|
Leaving aside the comparisons between petty thievery and a successful, ongoing
event...
Intentions notwithstanding, as long as the event was perceived by those
attending (volunteers and regular attendees and public) as a success, the
perception of any leftover funds being used for good vs. evil is moot. This is
based on a purely theoretical level, one that I think is being mixed with a more
pragmatic concern, which is, Will the event continue? And will it be better next
year for last year’s success?
If a given event is successful, more people will want to come to the next.
If the event had extra funds after all bills were paid, it’s in the best
interest of the organizers to entice volunteers to help again in future events -
by helping offset costs, providing special bonuses, etc.
If the volunteers are
happy, they’ll let people know they’re happy, and will consider coming back to
help again next year.
If the organizer is able to be reimbursed for some of the
time/materials they spent in getting things going, they’ll be more likely to
want to organize in the future.
If the audience perceives the event as being
successful (including financially), it’s likely they’ll consider attending
another event.
If the organizer wants it to be a successful event, they’re likely to be
responsible with resources to ensure future successes. I know well the three
people who’ve most recently organized BrickFests, and ain’t none of them stupid.
If I were to ever wake up one day and be ambitious enough to be an event
organizer, I would personally want whatever resources left over to go toward
furthering the hobby... since that’s why I’m here. But I don’t think I’d publish
a financial breakdown of expenditures, since I don’t think that’s really much of
anybody’s business.
Incidentally, I find it amusing that this entire conversation is predicated on
the assumption there are wads of cash burning holes in somebody’s pocket,
waiting to be spent. We don’t know, and I don’t think anyone is obligated to
provide that information. If they do, great... if not, so what?
Kelly
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
After lamblasting Anthony for his estimate of time, I would like to support
him a little on his arguement here. I think it is a little disengenous for
an organizer not to be upfront with where the money will go if there is a
profit left over.
|
Why? Still not following the logic. As an attendee, I paid my money and
received value, and my hobby is being furthered by positive public attention.
As a volunteer, I get warm fuzzies and the adoration of my peers for
participating in such a cool event. What else is there? I’m not trying to be
obtuse, but I still haven’t really seen any reason for financial disclosure
more compelling than, “Because I want to know” or (worse) “Because I’m
entitled to know.”
|
You don’t think there’s anything wrong with acting like a nonprofit but
operating as a private, for-profit enterprise? The IRS would like to have a
stern talk with you.
Not that BF has been pretending to be a nonprofit, but I don’t think the
organizers have made it sufficiently clear that BF is operated as a business
which may or may not be (we don’t know) be making a profit for its owners. If
it’s a business, then you’re right, we aren’t entitled to see the books - but we
are entitled to know upfront that we are giving our time and money to a
business.
| |
| |
I agree with others that have stipulated that they would attend even if a
Joe or Christina made money from the event. For my sensibilities, I want to
know that up front. I would rather not learn later that they had taken the
money and run with it rather than paying the bills, as has happened before
such as BricksWest. I would rather know that they intend to use the money
for good, not evil.
|
Leaving aside the comparisons between petty thievery and a successful,
ongoing event...
Intentions notwithstanding, as long as the event was perceived by those
attending (volunteers and regular attendees and public) as a success, the
perception of any leftover funds being used for good vs. evil is moot. This
is based on a purely theoretical level, one that I think is being mixed with
a more pragmatic concern, which is, Will the event continue? And will it be
better next year for last year’s success?
|
As a customer, I’m allowed to ask why a product costs as much as it does.
Businesses have no obligation to provide me with that information, but they
often do. Businesses will often make an effort to explain price increases by
citing increased supply costs or taxes, in an effort to let the consumer know
they aren’t just being gouged. And even privately held businesses (like TLG)
annonuce profits and losses - partly to reassure customers.
| |
If a given event is successful, more people will want to come to the next.
If the event had extra funds after all bills were paid, it’s in the best
interest of the organizers to entice volunteers to help again in future
events - by helping offset costs, providing special bonuses, etc.
If the
volunteers are happy, they’ll let people know they’re happy, and will
consider coming back to help again next year.
If the organizer is able to be
reimbursed for some of the time/materials they spent in getting things going,
they’ll be more likely to want to organize in the future.
If the audience
perceives the event as being successful (including financially), it’s likely
they’ll consider attending another event.
If the organizer wants it to be a successful event, they’re likely to be
responsible with resources to ensure future successes.
|
Very true. But what if they don’t want to run BF anymore? What if they need
money for hospital bills? What if they default on their mortgage or aren’t
paying their child support or their taxes? Neither the bank nor the taxman is
going to be swayed by “But, but... that money is for a LEGO convention!”
Marc Nelson Jr.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
After lamblasting Anthony for his estimate of time, I would like to support
him a little on his arguement here. I think it is a little disengenous for
an organizer not to be upfront with where the money will go if there is a
profit left over.
|
Why? Still not following the logic. As an attendee, I paid my money and
received value, and my hobby is being furthered by positive public
attention. As a volunteer, I get warm fuzzies and the adoration of my peers
for participating in such a cool event. What else is there? I’m not trying
to be obtuse, but I still haven’t really seen any reason for financial
disclosure more compelling than, “Because I want to know” or (worse)
“Because I’m entitled to know.”
|
You don’t think there’s anything wrong with acting like a nonprofit but
operating as a private, for-profit enterprise? The IRS would like to have a
stern talk with you.
|
You bet they would. But BF has always been a privately held company, as far as I
know, and never a non-profit. Being a non-profit requires specific paperwork
(like what LEGOFan filed). So unless BF filed as non-profit, that’s not an
issue.
| |
If it’s a business, then you’re right, we aren’t entitled to see the books -
but we are entitled to know upfront that we are giving our time and money to a
business.
|
Oh, I hadn’t realized that there was a misconception about BrickFest being
non-profit. Is that widespread? The solution for that’s pretty simple, more
education. I know the info’s on the footer of BrickFest.com, and has been since
I started doing the web site in late 2003.
| |
| |
Intentions notwithstanding, as long as the event was perceived by those
attending (volunteers and regular attendees and public) as a success, the
perception of any leftover funds being used for good vs. evil is moot. This
is based on a purely theoretical level, one that I think is being mixed with
a more pragmatic concern, which is, Will the event continue? And will it be
better next year for last year’s success?
|
As a customer, I’m allowed to ask why a product costs as much as it does.
Businesses have no obligation to provide me with that information, but they
often do. Businesses will often make an effort to explain price increases by
citing increased supply costs or taxes, in an effort to let the consumer know
they aren’t just being gouged. And even privately held businesses (like TLG)
annonuce profits and losses - partly to reassure customers.
|
Sure, and I know Joe is working on providing some of that information for ‘06.
Personally, I like seeing it too. But the core of my point is that I don’t
necessarily deserve to see it.
| |
| |
If the organizer wants it to be a successful event, they’re likely to be
responsible with resources to ensure future successes.
|
Very true. But what if they don’t want to run BF anymore? What if they need
money for hospital bills? What if they default on their mortgage or aren’t
paying their child support or their taxes? Neither the bank nor the taxman is
going to be swayed by “But, but... that money is for a LEGO convention!”
|
Then, if they have that money available, and it’s legally theirs, I don’t see
why they wouldn’t use it. Legally, morally... it’s theirs. As a LEGO fan, I
would sure like to see it put back to use for community events, but since it’s
somebody else’s money, I really don’t have a say. And stuff happens.
To clarify, the funds I’m talking about are what’s available after the event
and all bills are paid. If someone were to accept registration money and then
not use it to pay event bills, that’s something else altogether, but I don’t
think we’re talking about that.
Kelly
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
After lamblasting Anthony for his estimate of time, I would like to
support him a little on his arguement here. I think it is a little
disengenous for an organizer not to be upfront with where the money will
go if there is a profit left over.
|
Why? Still not following the logic. As an attendee, I paid my money and
received value, and my hobby is being furthered by positive public
attention. As a volunteer, I get warm fuzzies and the adoration of my peers
for participating in such a cool event. What else is there? I’m not trying
to be obtuse, but I still haven’t really seen any reason for financial
disclosure more compelling than, “Because I want to know” or (worse)
“Because I’m entitled to know.”
|
You don’t think there’s anything wrong with acting like a nonprofit but
operating as a private, for-profit enterprise? The IRS would like to have a
stern talk with you.
|
You bet they would. But BF has always been a privately held company, as far
as I know, and never a non-profit. Being a non-profit requires specific
paperwork (like what LEGOFan filed). So unless BF filed as non-profit, that’s
not an issue.
| |
If it’s a business, then you’re right, we aren’t entitled to see the books -
but we are entitled to know upfront that we are giving our time and money to
a business.
|
Oh, I hadn’t realized that there was a misconception about BrickFest being
non-profit. Is that widespread? The solution for that’s pretty simple, more
education. I know the info’s on the footer of BrickFest.com, and has been
since I started doing the web site in late 2003.
|
It started out as an event run by a
local LUG. I’m not sure when or how the transition happened. The fact that BF
was a business has been out there for a while - if you were looking for it. But
BF has never felt like a business, what with the calls for volunteers, donations
of time and prizes, etc.
| |
| |
| |
Intentions notwithstanding, as long as the event was perceived by those
attending (volunteers and regular attendees and public) as a success, the
perception of any leftover funds being used for good vs. evil is moot. This
is based on a purely theoretical level, one that I think is being mixed
with a more pragmatic concern, which is, Will the event continue? And will
it be better next year for last year’s success?
|
As a customer, I’m allowed to ask why a product costs as much as it does.
Businesses have no obligation to provide me with that information, but they
often do. Businesses will often make an effort to explain price increases by
citing increased supply costs or taxes, in an effort to let the consumer
know they aren’t just being gouged. And even privately held businesses (like
TLG) annonuce profits and losses - partly to reassure customers.
|
Sure, and I know Joe is working on providing some of that information for
‘06. Personally, I like seeing it too. But the core of my point is that I
don’t necessarily deserve to see it.
| |
| |
If the organizer wants it to be a successful event, they’re likely to be
responsible with resources to ensure future successes.
|
Very true. But what if they don’t want to run BF anymore? What if they need
money for hospital bills? What if they default on their mortgage or aren’t
paying their child support or their taxes? Neither the bank nor the taxman
is going to be swayed by “But, but... that money is for a LEGO convention!”
|
Then, if they have that money available, and it’s legally theirs, I don’t see
why they wouldn’t use it. Legally, morally... it’s theirs. As a LEGO fan, I
would sure like to see it put back to use for community events, but since
it’s somebody else’s money, I really don’t have a say. And stuff happens.
|
You don’t see that as a weakness? That one bad apple or even an innocent
personal problem could potentially wipe out a community event? LUGNET is a
perfect example of this - everything depended on just two people, and problems
have resulted from that fact.
I want BF to continue. I just think that’s more likely to happen if it’s run by
the community through a nonprofit organization than if all the burden rests on
one or a few people’s shoulders. Even a business with many investors would be
preferable to a one-man show, although it would be less likely to benefit from
the goodwill (and tax advantages) that accrue to a nonprofit.
Marc Nelson Jr.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
If the organizer wants it to be a successful event, they’re likely to be
responsible with resources to ensure future successes.
|
Very true. But what if they don’t want to run BF anymore? What if they need
money for hospital bills? What if they default on their mortgage or aren’t
paying their child support or their taxes? Neither the bank nor the taxman
is going to be swayed by “But, but... that money is for a LEGO convention!”
|
Then, if they have that money available, and it’s legally theirs, I don’t
see why they wouldn’t use it. Legally, morally... it’s theirs. As a LEGO
fan, I would sure like to see it put back to use for community events, but
since it’s somebody else’s money, I really don’t have a say. And stuff
happens.
|
You don’t see that as a weakness? That one bad apple or even an innocent
personal problem could potentially wipe out a community event? LUGNET is a
perfect example of this - everything depended on just two people, and
problems have resulted from that fact.
|
Never said it was an ideal scenario. I was just pointing out what is rather
than what might be preferred. And the way it is right now is that the
intellectual property for the name “BrickFest” is held by AMH Productions, who
holds all the rights and responsibilities of managing that brand. If you think
BrickFest should be a non-profit corporation (rather than a Limited Liability
Corporation), they’re the organization you need to convince. (I don’t know the
details of AMH.)
If there were a choice between having an international LEGO fan convention owned
by a company, or not having an international LEGO fan convention at all, I’d
pick the former.
Kelly
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
|
| |
| |
Oh, I hadn’t realized that there was a misconception about BrickFest being
non-profit. Is that widespread? The solution for that’s pretty simple, more
education. I know the info’s on the footer of BrickFest.com, and has been
since I started doing the web site in late 2003.
|
It started out as an event run by a
local LUG. I’m not sure when or how the transition happened. The fact that
BF was a business has been out there for a while - if you were looking for
it. But BF has never felt like a business, what with the calls for
volunteers, donations of time and prizes, etc.
|
The phrase “BrickFest is a Trademark of Brick Events LLC” started showing up on
the website by
July 19,
2002 at the latest. The Wayback Machine
isn’t showing me the results for the beginning of 2002. The 2002 event was the
first one to charge registration fees.
Marc Nelson Jr.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
> > In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
>
> > > Oh, I hadn't realized that there was a misconception about
> > > BrickFest being non-profit. Is that widespread? The solution for
> > > that's pretty simple, more education. I know the info's on the
> > > footer of BrickFest.com, and has been since I started doing the web
> > > site in late 2003.
> >
> > It started out as an event <http://news.lugnet.com/announce/?n=536
> > run by a local LUG>. I'm not sure when or how the transition
> > happened. The fact that BF was a business has been out there for a
> > while - if you were looking for it. But BF has never felt like a
> > business, what with the calls for volunteers, donations of time and
> > prizes, etc.
>
> The phrase "BrickFest is a Trademark of Brick Events LLC" started
> showing up on the website by
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20020719044301/http://www.brickfest.com/
> July 19, 2002> at the latest. The <http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
> Wayback Machine> isn't showing me the results for the beginning of
> 2002. The 2002 event was the first one to charge registration fees.
I'm pretty sure BrickFest 2000 had a registration fee. I know that it was
pointed out at one point that even in 2000, the facility was NOT free (I had
been under that impression, and I know when conversation started about
BF2001, perhaps even during BF2000, I pointed out that I would be inclined
to pay more registration to actually pay for a facility that was better, and
I was quickly corrected that the facility had indeed NOT been free for
2000). I have this feeling the registration for 2000 was $10 or $20 or
something. If no one else verifies, I'll go dig through my old check books
and find the check stub (and I'm absolutely sure 2001 had a fee since I know
I have mailed Christina a check from North Carolina, and by BF 2002 I was
living in Oregon).
It did appear originally that BF 2000 was run by Wamalug, but what I have
heard since is that basically is was Denise, Kevin, Stephen (Wubwub), and
Christina that made it happen.
Hmm, and here's the first announcement with registration information:
http://news.lugnet.com/announce/?n=596
I was digging around trying to figure out when I first responded to the idea
of BrickFest, I know I was one of the people who responded to the initial
idea.
Ah, here's the registration form for BrickFest 2001:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010604151208/www.brickfest.com/register.html
10 bucks in 2001. Which does indicate still being run by Wamalug...
Certainly a fuzzy past.
Frank
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Frank Filz wrote:
| |
Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
|
| |
| |
Oh, I hadn’t realized that there was a misconception about
BrickFest being non-profit. Is that widespread? The solution for
that’s pretty simple, more education. I know the info’s on the
footer of BrickFest.com, and has been since I started doing the web
site in late 2003.
|
It started out as an event run by a local LUG. I’m not sure when or how the transition
happened. The fact that BF was a business has been out there for a
while - if you were looking for it. But BF has never felt like a
business, what with the calls for volunteers, donations of time and
prizes, etc.
|
The phrase “BrickFest is a Trademark of Brick Events LLC” started
showing up on the website by
July 19, 2002 at the latest. The Wayback Machine isn’t showing me the results for the beginning of
2002. The 2002 event was the first one to charge registration fees.
|
I’m pretty sure BrickFest 2000 had a registration fee. I know that it was
pointed out at one point that even in 2000, the facility was NOT free (I had
been under that impression, and I know when conversation started about
BF2001, perhaps even during BF2000, I pointed out that I would be inclined
to pay more registration to actually pay for a facility that was better, and
I was quickly corrected that the facility had indeed NOT been free for
2000). I have this feeling the registration for 2000 was $10 or $20 or
something. If no one else verifies, I’ll go dig through my old check books
and find the check stub (and I’m absolutely sure 2001 had a fee since I know
I have mailed Christina a check from North Carolina, and by BF 2002 I was
living in Oregon).
It did appear originally that BF 2000 was run by Wamalug, but what I have
heard since is that basically is was Denise, Kevin, Stephen (Wubwub), and
Christina that made it happen.
Hmm, and here’s the first announcement with registration information:
http://news.lugnet.com/announce/?n=596
I was digging around trying to figure out when I first responded to the idea
of BrickFest, I know I was one of the people who responded to the initial
idea.
Ah, here’s the registration form for BrickFest 2001:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010604151208/www.brickfest.com/register.html
10 bucks in 2001. Which does indicate still being run by Wamalug...
Certainly a fuzzy past.
Frank
|
Thanks, Frank, and sorry about the mistake. I had no recollection of the fees,
and was just going by this exchange - which I thought pertained to the registration, but since there
was a fee in 2001, they must have meant that the space was free.
Not that it’s really important, I was just trying to establish when Brick Events
LLC took over from WAMALUG.
Marc Nelson Jr.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
...they must have meant that the space was free.
|
SPACE!!!
ROSCO
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Ross Crawford wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
...they must have meant that the space was free.
|
SPACE!!!
ROSCO
|
LOL
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
Why? Still not following the logic. As an attendee, I paid my money and
received value, and my hobby is being furthered by positive public attention.
As a volunteer, I get warm fuzzies and the adoration of my peers for
participating in such a cool event. What else is there? I’m not trying to be
obtuse, but I still haven’t really seen any reason for financial disclosure
more compelling than, “Because I want to know” or (worse) “Because I’m
entitled to know.”
|
“Because I’ll be more likely to help if I know”, “Because I’ll be more likely to
donate if I know”, “Because I’d be willing to pay more if I know”, “Because I’m
more likely to attend if I know”.
You’re absoutely right-- It’s a capitalist country, and you’re free to be
secretive and treat your clients like moronic sheep if you *want* to. It’s just
that we’re not all moronic sheep, so the more we know, the better we’ll be
(psychologically and volunteer-wise).
Let me give you an example.
I did a Lego Trivia Game Show for BrickFest 2004, and I wanted to have
butt-kicking prizes. I wanted it to *feel* like a real game show. I knew full
well that 1) I wouldn’t be giving them ALL away and 2) I might not get
reimbursed from BrickFest, because I bet they didn’t have crazy amounts of money
floating around.
So I contacted Christina early on, and tried to get some estimations on how much
was “reasonable” to get reimbursed for prizes by BrickFest. I never got a
specific budget or ballpark figure, so I went ahead and went nuts, figuring
“well, whatever they can reimburse me would be great, but if I have to pay for
it all out-of-pocket, I’m prepared for that.” So I went out and spent $865.58 on
prizes.
As it turned out, $307.75 worth of prizes were given away, and I felt a little
better about this number once I knew that the public day’s income was a lot
higher than they had expected. So I sent Christina the receipts I got, and again
told her pretty much “I realize I may have went over whatever you expect the
budget to be, so feel free to reimburse whatever percentage you feel is fair,
even if that’s $0”. Turns out I was fully reimbursed (phew!)
But later on, I found out that the “norm” (at least back then) was for event
coordinators (not sure about theme coordinators) typically volunteered prizes
out of their own wallets.
Now, let’s say that I wanted to do this Game Show again for 2007 (yes, I’m
strongly considering it). I’m a less likely to *give* prizes to BrickFest if I
know that the organizers are taking a share of the profits.
Essentially, I’m more willing to be generous and selfless if those around me are
doing the same thing. I would’ve been totally fine if BrickFest never reimbursed
me for the Game Show costs. BUT, if they hadn’t *AND* I found out that the
profits just went into the organizer’s pockets, I’d be kind of miffed, and
unlikely to do it again.
That said, there’s a fine line there right around “fair compensation”. As has
been stated by most in this thread, compensation for the organizers’ time is
welcome! Just as long as it doesn’t sacrifice the longevity of the event. And,
what’s more, if people know more, they’ll probably feel better about the event.
Now, I recognize that past BrickFests may not be able to divulge all the details
of their finances. It’s possible that GMU doesn’t want it known how cheaply we
were able to book the space (since others might use that as a precedent and
demand similar pricing). Same goes for other things like the Brick Engraver’s
costs, costs on Lego prizes, K8’s, etc, etc. But I think it would bolster the
community’s confidence in the event to know at least where money goes for a
BrickFest event, even if “how much” isn’t addressed.
Going forward (and backwards too, if possible, but no pressure), I must say I
would appreciate knowing things like that. And, you’re right, Kelly-- I’m not
entitled to that information, and BrickFest has the right to withhold it. And
yes, BrickFest has the right to insult and belittle all its attendees. It has
the right to treat us all like morons. BUT. It also has the right to be
forthright, honest, open, and respectful. And we, as a community, will likely
act accordingly.
DaveE
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In lugnet.events, David Eaton wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
Why? Still not following the logic. As an attendee, I paid my money and
received value, and my hobby is being furthered by positive public
attention. As a volunteer, I get warm fuzzies and the adoration of my peers
for participating in such a cool event. What else is there? I’m not trying
to be obtuse, but I still haven’t really seen any reason for financial
disclosure more compelling than, “Because I want to know” or (worse)
“Because I’m entitled to know.”
|
“Because I’ll be more likely to help if I know”, “Because I’ll be more likely
to donate if I know”, “Because I’d be willing to pay more if I know”,
“Because I’m more likely to attend if I know”.
|
Those are all decent answers. It sounds like there’s a discrepancy of tense...
my comments in this thread have all been aimed at the past tense, why should an
attendee of an event want to know information about what they’ve just attended.
Yours are examples of why you’d attend or volunteer for one in the future.
| |
You’re absoutely right-- It’s a capitalist country, and you’re free to be
secretive and treat your clients like moronic sheep if you *want* to. It’s
just that we’re not all moronic sheep, so the more we know, the better we’ll
be (psychologically and volunteer-wise).
|
To be clear, I’m not speaking for BrickFest at all... just as myself. So I’m
hoping that you’re not taking my comments as official statements. I haven’t seen
any posts or anything from official BrickFest sources that could be construed as
treating people as moronic sheep, so I’m not sure what that’s referring to. I’m
hoping you’re not finding my comments moronically sheepish.
| |
Essentially, I’m more willing to be generous and selfless if those around me
are doing the same thing. I would’ve been totally fine if BrickFest never
reimbursed me for the Game Show costs. BUT, if they hadn’t *AND* I found out
that the profits just went into the organizer’s pockets, I’d be kind of
miffed, and unlikely to do it again.
|
Exactly, as my earlier post that joked about Joe driving up in a Ferrari would
make me a little jealous. Disproportionate rewards would certainly hurt the
event’s credibility, and I haven’t seen that happen. (And I hope it never does.)
| |
And, you’re right, Kelly-- I’m not
entitled to that information, and BrickFest has the right to withhold it.
|
That’s pretty much the only point I’ve been (laboriously) trying to make.
| |
And
yes, BrickFest has the right to insult and belittle all its attendees. It has
the right to treat us all like morons.
|
Uh... that’s not the point I’ve been trying to make. I think we should wait
for BrickFest to belittle and insult its attendees before making judgments,
though.
| |
BUT. It also has the right to be
forthright, honest, open, and respectful. And we, as a community, will likely
act accordingly.
|
I think it has been all that, so far, or I wouldn’t have been involved for the
last few years. If and when the organizers of the event treat people like, well,
like I’m treated at work... then it’s no longer fun, and the enthusiastic
volunteers will disappear in droves.
Kelly
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In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
| |
“Because I’ll be more likely to help if I know”, “Because I’ll be more
likely to donate if I know”, “Because I’d be willing to pay more if I know”,
“Because I’m more likely to attend if I know”.
|
Those are all decent answers. It sounds like there’s a discrepancy of
tense... my comments in this thread have all been aimed at the past tense,
why should an attendee of an event want to know information about what
they’ve just attended. Yours are examples of why you’d attend or volunteer
for one in the future.
|
Well... yeah? Shouldn’t we be talking about consequence?
| |
To be clear, I’m not speaking for BrickFest at all... just as myself. So I’m
hoping that you’re not taking my comments as official statements. I haven’t
seen any posts or anything from official BrickFest sources that could be
construed as treating people as moronic sheep, so I’m not sure what that’s
referring to. I’m hoping you’re not finding my comments moronically sheepish.
|
Oh, I’m not referring to any actions specifically-- I’m following what appears
to be your stance to its absolutist conclusions to test the validity of your
claim. Your claim appears to be “BrickFest owes only specifically what it claims
to owe to its attendees”, as in 1) a venue 2) space to show MOCs (as warranted
by the rules), 3) any merchandise advertised and purchased, and maybe 4)
presentations as promised, although “owe” may not apply in that case as
BrickFest may not guarantee the actions of its volunteer presenters.
Essentially, by claiming that, and (apparently) not advocating what BrickFest
“ought” and “ought not” do, your position comes across (to me at least) as being
very closed-door and heartless. Effectively, I heard you saying “BrickFest owes
you squat”.
And while I agree that that’s true, I think the point that is being expressed by
Todd (and to a point Anthony as well) is a valid one-- that we as a community
will feel *better* about the event the more we know, and will be more likely to
contribute more. I don’t know if anyone’s claiming that they really deserve or
need to know, but I would like to *encourage* a larger amount of transparency in
BrickFest’s finances.
DaveE
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In lugnet.events, David Eaton wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
| |
“Because I’ll be more likely to help if I know”, “Because I’ll be more
likely to donate if I know”, “Because I’d be willing to pay more if I
know”, “Because I’m more likely to attend if I know”.
|
Those are all decent answers. It sounds like there’s a discrepancy of
tense... my comments in this thread have all been aimed at the past tense,
why should an attendee of an event want to know information about what
they’ve just attended. Yours are examples of why you’d attend or volunteer
for one in the future.
|
Well... yeah? Shouldn’t we be talking about consequence?
|
Sure, but that’s a slightly different conversation.
| |
| |
To be clear, I’m not speaking for BrickFest at all... just as myself. So I’m
hoping that you’re not taking my comments as official statements. I haven’t
seen any posts or anything from official BrickFest sources that could be
construed as treating people as moronic sheep, so I’m not sure what that’s
referring to. I’m hoping you’re not finding my comments moronically
sheepish.
|
Oh, I’m not referring to any actions specifically-- I’m following what
appears to be your stance to its absolutist conclusions to test the validity
of your claim. Your claim appears to be “BrickFest owes only specifically
what it claims to owe to its attendees”, as in 1) a venue 2) space to show
MOCs (as warranted by the rules), 3) any merchandise advertised and
purchased, and maybe 4) presentations as promised, although “owe” may not
apply in that case as BrickFest may not guarantee the actions of its
volunteer presenters.
Essentially, by claiming that, and (apparently) not advocating what BrickFest
“ought” and “ought not” do, your position comes across (to me at least) as
being very closed-door and heartless. Effectively, I heard you saying
“BrickFest owes you squat”.
|
I’m a heartless bastard. Ask my kids. :)
You’re free to draw the above conclusion, although it’s incorrect. The
conversation has morphed into something different from what I thought I was
talking about. I have enough of these chats with my wife, that you’d think I’d
learn. So time to clarify.
Statement: BrickFest is legally or morally required to provide detailed
information on revenue and expenditures, specifically beyond those funds used to
pay all event expenses.
Kelly: No. Here’s why... insert reasons
That’s pretty much it. I’d love to have another conversation about wider issues,
like enticing volunteers to come back, or getting people enthused about the
hobby... but those are different conversations than what I thought I was
having. I’m pretty much a linear thinker.
| |
And while I agree that that’s true, I think the point that is being expressed
by Todd (and to a point Anthony as well) is a valid one-- that we as a
community will feel *better* about the event the more we know, and will be
more likely to contribute more.
|
No argument with that.
| |
I don’t know if anyone’s claiming that they
really deserve or need to know, but I would like to *encourage* a larger
amount of transparency in BrickFest’s finances.
|
That’s well said, and if it helps the event prosper, then I would support that.
(That’s me starting in on another conversation.)
Kelly
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| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
|
--Anthony
|
Well Anthony, I am sorry you feel that way, but I will tell you from my own
personal experience that I, as a strong participant in AFOL events, have helped
arrange, coordinate, setup, present, book, organize, and generally help any way
I can. I was Deputy Coordinator (whatever that title means) which put me #3 in
line from the top. I was involved in one way or another from October last year;
as were MANY other AFOLs. We have put in countless hours of time, effort, phone
bills, gas, etc to make this happen. That’s why I feel it is OK for staff to get
compensated.
Now that I have stated that much, I’ll tell you exactly what perks and benefits
I have gotten:
- BrickFest registration - I paid full price
- BrickFest Hotel - I paid full price
- T shirts, badges, etc - I paid full price
As a matter of fact, I have never made a single penny off of any event,
magazine, book, or other from ANY fan based effort. The only comps I have ever
gotten is from TLG for work I have done for them in an official capacity. I do
this because I choose to, feeling that I owe the community that much and because
I am one of the luckier people in life that doesn’t need the compensation.
However, I also realize that other people who do this work might need a little
extra help, and I can guarantee you that Joe (and I am sure Christina in the
past, as well as many others, too numerous to name here) put enough time and
effort into this that if they took the whole lot of dough, it MIGHT cover the
cost of time, gas, and money they have shelled out.
As far as I am concerned, the only thing owed to the public is an accounting of
where the money is going, and Joe will be getting that out as soon as he gets
all of the bookwork done.
--------------SOAPBOX----------------
Now it is time for me to get flamed and speak my mind for a minute. I rarely
jump into the middle of political discussion but I have finally been pushed over
the edge (Anthony, please understand it was not your post that sent me over the
edge. Your point was very valid, and that’s why I answered it outside of my rant
(g)). I have been privvy to a lot of information floating around the community,
both on the BrickFest staff aliases and elsewhere in general. I am watching the
community try to tear itself apart over people’s perspectives. I am seeing power
struggles going on. I am seeing people getting their feelings hurt. I have seen
people holding grudges and making accusations that are not always true. I have
personally experienced a couple of people ripping into me simply because I am a
friend of someone else. OMG!!!!
FOLKS, we have got to get over this. We do all these things because we love the
brick. I have plenty of friends here in my little town and we do all kinds of
fun social events around here. I don’t go to AFOL events to get more friends. I
don’t need more friends. I go because I want to get together with the AFOLs
because we share a common love for a toy and can often inspire, teach, laugh and
be happy over this common interest.
So I will tell you now, I don’t care who hosts BrickFest, where it is, or how
much it costs, I will show up as long as I do not have a family engagement and
can get time off of work. I will come to revel in other’s work. I will come to
drink a few beers after hours and swap silly stories. I will come to compete in
robotics competitions. I will come to learn more from others. and I will have a
great time. I hope, I beg and I plead for the community to start getting back
into this mentality.
--------------/SOAPBOX----------------
I will not be replying to this post again, so if you wish any further discussion
with me, please send me email directly. And while I am upset right now, I still
love this community and will never give up on it. For the most part, AFOLs still
ROCK and are still awesome people to hang out with.
C’Ya
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So... I don’t get enough out of Brickfest to make it worth my while to go
--Anthony
|
That’s fine. More food and walking space for the rest of us.
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In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall BrickFest
ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final destination of
registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough to keep it
happening year after year.
I’ve spent considerable sums over the years to fly cross-country to attend
these events, but even if it was next door, I’d still be fine paying
registration fees. Which, by the way, I don’t find outrageous by any means.
Anyone objecting strenuously to registration fees of less than $100 per
person should take a look at business-related convention/conference fees (add
a zero and keep going).
Kelly
|
Kelly, you’re probably right that BF being a for-profit event shouldn’t affect
the perceived value of what you get for your registration fee. But it might
affect other things.
Would people be as willing to volunteer to help run BF if they knew they were
working for a for-profit enterprise? I volunteer at my local library, but I
don’t think I’ll be volunteering at Waldenbooks anytime soon. Would people be so
eager to lug 50 lbs. of MOCs to BF if they thought they were padding someone’s
profit margin?
It’s true that BF has never billed itself as a charity or nonprofit event. But
it hasn’t really come out and said it’s a business either. The profuse thanks
offered to the volunteers and organizers of the event have probably led many
AFOLs to believe that BF is a nonprofit. I mean, when’s the last time you gave
the folks working at Wal-Mart a standing ovation?
For the record, here’s the corporate information for
AMH Productions and
BrickJournal Media. BF had previously done business as Brick Events LLC, but
that corporation was cancelled at the end of 2005 (see
here).
Marc Nelson Jr.
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
Would people be as willing to volunteer to help run BF if they knew they were
working for a for-profit enterprise? I volunteer at my local library, but I
don’t think I’ll be volunteering at Waldenbooks anytime soon. Would people be
so eager to lug 50 lbs. of MOCs to BF if they thought they were padding
someone’s profit margin?
|
Good question about volunteers. I think it’s all about what’s expected up front.
There are all sorts of reasons why people volunteer for things... if I was doing
the same thing as somebody who had a different “deal” with an organizer, I’d
feel shafted. If I thought that the organizer knew they’d be rolling in green
after the event, and was putting on the event only for profit, I’d hesitate to
volunteer. (That’s different from paid attendance, where the organization
structure wouldn’t necessarily matter to me as an attendee.) But if it’s clear
up-front that I’m a volunteer at an event, and everybody else is volunteering
too, I wouldn’t worry too much.
Unless Joe drove up in a Lamborghini. Then I’d stick out my hand. ;)
Disproportionate rewards would be a source of friction, I’m sure. But that
hasn’t happened, and with the people involved, I don’t expect it to.
I’m pretty sure the goal is a net-zero end result, erring on the side of having
too much left over at the end, rather than too little.
Kelly
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In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall BrickFest
ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final destination of
registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough to keep it
happening year after year.
|
Yes, it absolutely does. I expect every cent I put in to go back to the event
itself, and not the people running it. The only compensation I expect any
staffers to recieve is free entry to the event (since it is more work than play
for most of them) and maybe a free hotel room (nothing fancy and probably with
other staffmembers) if they want it. As long as the event is a fan event, run
*by* fans, *for* fans, I think this is the way it should be. All other fan
events I am inclined to attend work this way, and I see no reason a Lego fan
event should be different. If any staffmembers got any sort of monetary
compensation (besides repayment for their own out-of-pocket expenses), it is a
huge kick to the head for all staffmembers who not only had to spend time
planning, but also had to pay for board and entry to the event. I also don’t
think money for any fan event should go to pay for an unassociated event or
product. Sending paypal money to Brickjournal made me really nervous when I saw
that after registration, and I just hope none of the BF income went to pay for
Brickjournal.
In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from the
event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
beforehand) is very unethical.
Jeff
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| |
|
"Jeff Stembel" <jeff@aulddragon.com> wrote:
> In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
> embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from the
> event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
> beforehand) is very unethical.
>
> Jeff
From dictionary.com:
em?bez?zle [em-bez-uhl]
–verb (used with object), -zled, -zling.
to appropriate fraudulently to one's own use, as money or property
entrusted to one's care.
Which leads to:
fraud [frawd]
–noun
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence,
perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud;
election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and
a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
Which leads indirectly to:
li?bel [lahy-buhl]
–noun
1. Law.
a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form
other than by spoken words or gestures.
Being that the organizations that have produced and presented
Brickfest are private corporations, we the public have no right or
reasonable expectation of examination of the corporate books. Given
that, we have no right or reasonable expectation to demand that the
monies gathered in pursuit of their functions be used in any
particular manner. None. No right whatsoever. To expect that the
money will be used in any particular manner is naive. To expect to be
told what the corporation will do/has done with the money is also
naive. The corporation does what it must to survive. The board of
the corporation has a fiduciary duty to do what it must for the best
interests of the corporation. That means that it is ILLEGAL for them
to do something that is not in the best interests of the corporation.
It also means that if the best thing for the corporation is to have a
paid director, then that is what they should do. This applies to all
non-public corporations. [A public corporation is one where anyone
can buy stock in the company and thereby be a partial owner. A
non-public company has limited owners and the stock is not available
for sale to the general public.]
Unfortunately, Jeff, your opinion of what may or may not be
embezzlement is not valid. If someone takes money out of the till
without permission, that is embezzlement. If the board of directors
of a corporation decides to employ someone and pay them a reasonable
salary, it's called "normal business practices." Likewise, if the
board of directors feels that it is in the best interest of the
corporation to invest in other affiliated organizations so that both
may prosper, it's not only ethical, it may keep both organizations
profitable.
Note that there is a difference between the two following scenarios:
1. Not telling anyone what will be done with monies received.
2. Claiming that monies will be used for X, and then using them for Y.
Number 1 is not fraudulent. Number 2 may or may not be, depending on
extenuating circumstances.
There is no indication anywhere that anyone affliliated with a
Brickfest has done anything that is either unethical or illegal.
None. To say or imply otherwise is a form of Libel (see above) and an
extremely serious matter.
I would recommend that no one should reveal the books for any of the
events. The likelyhood that it will ease anyone's mind is far
outweighed by the second-guessing and armchair-director accusations
that will be thrown about. If people are interested in seeing the
books, I suggest they volunteer to be treasurer for the next event.
Ob LEGO: I'm going to go downstairs and build Spike, the scorpion for
the new NXT Mindstorms. I'm also thinking that by using Bluetooth, I
might have enough outputs now to robotize the Mars Rover that I bought
a couple years back. I think I needed about 5 and only had 3 on the
RCX. The problem is, do I have enough room to fit two NXT's in the
rover body? Hmmm.....
-Jon Gilchrist
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| |
|
In lugnet.events, Jon Gilchrist wrote:
> "Jeff Stembel" <jeff@aulddragon.com> wrote:
>
> > In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
> > embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from the
> > event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
> > beforehand) is very unethical.
> >
> > Jeff
>
> From dictionary.com:
>
> em?bez?zle [em-bez-uhl]
>
> –verb (used with object), -zled, -zling.
> to appropriate fraudulently to one's own use, as money or property
> entrusted to one's care.
>
> Which leads to:
>
> fraud [frawd]
>
> –noun
> 1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence,
> perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
> 2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud;
> election frauds.
> 3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and
> a waste of time.
> 4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
>
> Which leads indirectly to:
>
> li?bel [lahy-buhl]
>
> –noun
> 1. Law.
> a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form
> other than by spoken words or gestures.
--SNIP--
> -Jon Gilchrist
From http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=akin&x=0&y=0
2. allied by nature; having the same properties: Something akin to vertigo was
troubling her.
If you're going to go to the trouble of using the dictionary on one word at
least take the time to use it on those preceeding it.
Tim
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In lugnet.events, Jeff Stembel wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall
BrickFest ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final
destination of registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough
to keep it happening year after year.
|
Yes, it absolutely does. I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
event itself, and not the people running it. The only compensation I expect
any staffers to recieve is free entry to the event (since it is more work
than play for most of them) and maybe a free hotel room (nothing fancy and
probably with other staffmembers) if they want it. As long as the event is a
fan event, run *by* fans, *for* fans, I think this is the way it should be.
All other fan events I am inclined to attend work this way, and I see no
reason a Lego fan event should be different. If any staffmembers got any
sort of monetary compensation (besides repayment for their own out-of-pocket
expenses), it is a huge kick to the head for all staffmembers who not only
had to spend time planning, but also had to pay for board and entry to the
event. I also don’t think money for any fan event should go to pay for an
unassociated event or product. Sending paypal money to Brickjournal made me
really nervous when I saw that after registration, and I just hope none of
the BF income went to pay for Brickjournal.
In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from
the event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
beforehand) is very unethical.
Jeff
|
| |
In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from
the event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
beforehand) is very unethical.
Jeff
|
Golly Pete
In my opinion no monetary compensation for the event coordinator of a major
event is akin to slavery. And that is very, very unethical. Once you pay your
registration fee to an event you should have no say how, where, or to whom it
goes as long as you are satisfied with the results--unless it is billed as a
charity event in which case you do have not only the right to know where the
money went but have responsibility as a citizen to to know before contributing.
BrickFest has never been advertised as a charity event, or a non-profit event.
To say that Christina, if she realized any compensation from BrickFest in past
years or Joe this year, is guilty of “embezzlement” is absolutely ridiculous.
How can they embezle thier own money?
| |
I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
event itself, and not the people running it.
|
So the people running the event are not part of the event???????
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In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Jeff Stembel wrote:
| |
In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from
the event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
beforehand) is very unethical.
Jeff
|
Golly Pete
In my opinion no monetary compensation for the event coordinator of a major
event is akin to slavery. And that is very, very unethical. Once you pay
your registration fee to an event you should have no say how, where, or to
whom it goes as long as you are satisfied with the results--unless it is
billed as a charity event in which case you do have not only the right to
know where the money went but have responsibility as a citizen to to know
before contributing. BrickFest has never been advertised as a charity event,
or a non-profit event. To say that Christina, if she realized any
compensation from BrickFest in past years or Joe this year, is guilty of
“embezzlement” is absolutely ridiculous. How can they embezle thier own
money?
|
Slavery is not voluntary, and they CHOSE to participate, as did everyone else on
staff. Staffing a convention is not employment, it is a voluntary service to
better the hobby. In addition, the money is the *event’s* money, not any one
individual’s.
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I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
event itself, and not the people running it.
|
So the people running the event are not part of the event???????
|
No, not really. They are volunteers. Events are not about the people running
them, but about the hobby they are promoting.
Jeff
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You've never run an event have you Jeff?
First off, an event for more than 800 attendees has some expenses other
than just the 'space' for panels, displays etc. Quite a few.Start with
insurance., now I'm not sure about Virginia, but in my area the cost
for event insurance jumps drastically at 200, 500, 800 and 1000
attendees. That's TOTAL attendees, not just the number of attendees at
any given point, so you'd have to include all attendees of those coming
to the Public Day as well. It's not cheap.
assume for one moment that the hotel did actually provide the event
space for free, that does not include 'extras', Electrical power (yes
every convention center/hotel event place I've ever worked with has
charged for this on a per need basis), Tables, Chairs, Water and glasses
(I didn't attend, but I'll bet there was a table with water and glasses
in every convention space room), Service
(setup and take down of tables chairs et al.). Those organizations such
as hotels make their money on those extras, and boy do they usually make
a killing. The 'Free meal' I read about in another post, probably cost
quite a bit. They convention organization has to have enough reserve to
pay the deposit on the space, which usually includes enough to pay for
the space if insufficient rooms are booked to meet the contract terms
which made the space 'free'. Advertising, postage for mailings, printing
services for mailings. If there are guests of honor, the convention is
usually expected to feed, house and transport said guests. A small
convention (less than 500 attendees) will often cost a minimum of
$5,000, and that is just insurance, space, tables, and a single guest of
honor. Additionally, while the main display space was specifically
mentioned as having been 'free', I do not recall mention of things like
green room/operations, panel/meeting rooms, Convention Staff rooms being
'free'. It all adds up, and it adds up fast. If there is a 'Con Suite/
munchies' room those alone can consume a $2,500 budget to keep minimally
stocked with soda and chips.
I haven't even mentioned equipment, such as projectors, video rooms or
any other such although I'm certain there were at least projectors used
in the panels. $45k to operate a convention is PEANUTS for a convention
the size and popularity of Brickfest. I doubt that Joe or Christina did
take any compensation other than reimbursement for expenses. But if they
did, then I look at it thus. I don't put in more than 80 hours of
charity labor on any one thing. If for no other reason than the fact
that if it requires that much time, I cannot afford to not be
compensated in some fashion. Oh and let's not forget, I seem to recall
Brickfest having really spiffy badges, but even cheapo paper, black and
white, with a plastic pin holder cost an average of $1 each after
printing costs (even if they use their own printer).
Trust me, if they were making a profit at all, it was a pittance. GenCon
is a for profit convention: Reg Fees $150 for the weekend, plus pay for
play events, and you are inundated with advertising for it's 'Displays'.
Hmm, is the Brickfest organization listed as 501c3 LLC?
If not, then you are completely wrong about whether or not anyone cannot
be paid. Even if they are, then the organization board has the right to
elect to pay someone for their time.
As for your definition of 'Events', ever heard of GenCon? C3?
Information Technology Events. some of these cost over $1,000 to attend
and are run for profit.. and what do you get, a few classes and a couple
truckloads of advertising.... So they are for profit and forward what is
for many a hobby and for others a job or career.
So my challenge Jeff: why don't you run a con and see how you feel. Oh
yeah, don't forget that until the con starts and the registrations are
all in, you probably had to get a loan or two to fund the on to start with.
I may not have been able to afford to go, but not because of a measly
$60 reg fee, rather I couldn't afford the travel, hotel, time off and
the parts budget I would have needed.
Jeff Stembel wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.events, Jeff Stembel wrote:
> >
> > > In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
> > > embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from
> > > the event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
> > > beforehand) is very unethical.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> >
> > Golly Pete
> >
> > In my opinion no monetary compensation for the event coordinator of a major
> > event is akin to slavery. And that is very, very unethical. Once you pay
> > your registration fee to an event you should have no say how, where, or to
> > whom it goes as long as you are satisfied with the results--unless it is
> > billed as a charity event in which case you do have not only the right to
> > know where the money went but have responsibility as a citizen to to know
> > before contributing. BrickFest has never been advertised as a charity event,
> > or a non-profit event. To say that Christina, if she realized any
> > compensation from BrickFest in past years or Joe this year, is guilty of
> > "embezzlement" is absolutely ridiculous. How can they embezle thier own
> > money?
>
>
> Slavery is not voluntary, and they CHOSE to participate, as did everyone else on
> staff. Staffing a convention is not employment, it is a voluntary service to
> better the hobby. In addition, the money is the *event's* money, not any one
> individual's.
>
>
> > > I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
> > > event itself, and not the people running it.
> >
> > So the people running the event are not part of the event???????
>
>
> No, not really. They are volunteers. Events are not about the people running
> them, but about the hobby they are promoting.
>
> Jeff
>
>
--
Joe Greene
UNIX Systems, Network and IT Specialist
If you aren't having fun, you're doing the wrong thing!
All opinions expressed are mine alone. You Can't Have them!
42.857142857142854% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
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Jeff Stembel wrote:
> Slavery is not voluntary, and they CHOSE to participate, as did everyone else on
> staff. Staffing a convention is not employment, it is a voluntary service to
> better the hobby. In addition, the money is the *event's* money, not any one
> individual's.
Where do you get these ideas? They're *opinions*, not fact.
Of course staffing a convention can be employment. It doesn't *have* to
be payment-free or volunteer work. And event money *can* go to paying
staff.
Do you not understand that "conventions" can be run in vastly many ways,
and your idea of how they should be run is not the *only* one?
Don't like it? Don't go. With the attendance growing each year, I
doubt anyone will notice.
> > > I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
> > > event itself, and not the people running it.
> > So the people running the event are not part of the event???????
>
> No, not really. They are volunteers. Events are not about the people running
> them, but about the hobby they are promoting.
And why does this matter in payment/non-payment?
Oh, BTW - if the people running an event quit, where's the event?
--
Tom Stangl
* http://www.vfaq.com/
* DSM Visual FAQ home
* 90 Talon AWD
* http://www.vfaq.net/
* Prius Visual FAQ Home
* 04 Prius AM #7
* 06 Prius NL #7
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In lugnet.events, Jeff Stembel wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall
BrickFest ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final
destination of registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough
to keep it happening year after year.
|
Yes, it absolutely does. I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
event itself, and not the people running it.
|
That’s an unrealistic expectation.
| |
The only compensation I expect
any staffers to recieve is free entry to the event (since it is more work
than play for most of them) and maybe a free hotel room (nothing fancy and
probably with other staffmembers) if they want it. As long as the event is a
fan event, run *by* fans, *for* fans, I think this is the way it should be.
All other fan events I am inclined to attend work this way, and I see no
reason a Lego fan event should be different.
|
I look forward to your announcement of your own LEGO-related event, I’d like to
see how that works for you. Good luck with that.
| |
In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from
the event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
beforehand) is very unethical.
|
Tommy said it well... how can you embezzle your own money? Christina (or Joe
this year) were the ones whose names were on the legal documents, and were the
ones responsible for the event. No matter how much you feel it unethical,
legally and morally whatever funds collected at a fan event are the ultimate
property of the person or organization whose name is on the bottom line.
Now, if you are interested in seeing the events continue, I would expect any
“leftover” funds would help jumpstart the next event, or at least entice the
coordinators into repeating their participation. But to be blunt, I don’t know
of any laws or regulations that a private individual or solely-owned company is
required to divulge financial data to its customers. You may want to know
where the money goes, you may prefer excess funds be used for the furtherance
of the next event... but I don’t see where any BrickFest attendee or volunteer
has the right to demand or expect that information or that promise. If I were to
demand that of my boss at work, or at a fast-food restaurant where I’d just
ordered a burger, I’d be told point-blank it was none of my flippin’ business.
And rightfully so.
Oh, and from what I understand... the more $$$ available from BF, the better the
volunteers are treated.
If, as an attendee, paying your registration fee and getting value for your fee
isn’t enough... you are of course free to not attend. I’ve never understood why
it makes a difference what Christina does with her money after the event is
over. Same for Joe for ‘06.
One final thought... a public that holds unrealistic expectations of those
organizing events like this could create conditions that discourage coordinators
and volunteers from putting events together. Wouldn’t that be the ultimate
irony?
Kelly
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In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Jeff Stembel wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Kelly McKiernan wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off
of the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the
case this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
|
If you feel you got your money’s worth (~$20/day) from the privilege of
attending and participating, does it really matter where the money goes?
Unless the event is stated as a charity event (which I don’t recall
BrickFest ever being billed as), I’m not concerned with the final
destination of registration fees. Just as long as the bottom line’s enough
to keep it happening year after year.
|
Yes, it absolutely does. I expect every cent I put in to go back to the
event itself, and not the people running it.
|
That’s an unrealistic expectation.
|
It’s not THAT unrealistic, as Jeff mentioned that he attends other fan events
where the organizers work on a volunteer basis.
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The only compensation I expect
any staffers to recieve is free entry to the event (since it is more work
than play for most of them) and maybe a free hotel room (nothing fancy and
probably with other staffmembers) if they want it. As long as the event is
a fan event, run *by* fans, *for* fans, I think this is the way it should
be. All other fan events I am inclined to attend work this way, and I see no
reason a Lego fan event should be different.
|
I look forward to your announcement of your own LEGO-related event, I’d like
to see how that works for you. Good luck with that.
| |
In my opinion, any monetary compensation for staffmembers is akin to
embezzlement (especially if it is not made known) and any money going from
the event to another organization (again, especially if it is not announced
beforehand) is very unethical.
|
Tommy said it well... how can you embezzle your own money? Christina (or Joe
this year) were the ones whose names were on the legal documents, and were
the ones responsible for the event. No matter how much you feel it unethical,
legally and morally whatever funds collected at a fan event are the
ultimate property of the person or organization whose name is on the bottom
line.
Now, if you are interested in seeing the events continue, I would expect any
“leftover” funds would help jumpstart the next event, or at least entice the
coordinators into repeating their participation. But to be blunt, I don’t
know of any laws or regulations that a private individual or solely-owned
company is required to divulge financial data to its customers. You may
want to know where the money goes, you may prefer excess funds be used
for the furtherance of the next event... but I don’t see where any BrickFest
attendee or volunteer has the right to demand or expect that information or
that promise. If I were to demand that of my boss at work, or at a fast-food
restaurant where I’d just ordered a burger, I’d be told point-blank it was
none of my flippin’ business. And rightfully so.
Oh, and from what I understand... the more $$$ available from BF, the better
the volunteers are treated.
If, as an attendee, paying your registration fee and getting value for your
fee isn’t enough... you are of course free to not attend. I’ve never
understood why it makes a difference what Christina does with her money
after the event is over. Same for Joe for ‘06.
One final thought... a public that holds unrealistic expectations of those
organizing events like this could create conditions that discourage
coordinators and volunteers from putting events together. Wouldn’t that be
the ultimate irony?
Kelly
|
You’re right - Christina/Joe/whoever could take the accumulated funds from BF
and write themselves a check for the full amount - totally legally. It would be
great if the profits were plowed into the next fest, but if someone wants to
cash out at any time, that would be their right. And that’s probably why some
people are uneasy about BF being run by a for profit enterprise.
Obviously, people who work for non-profits get paid. But they can’t liquidate
the assets of the organization and pocket the money. There’s a board, and tax
requirements and so on. I think people would feel much more comfortable handing
over their time and money if BF were run as a non-profit, with open books and a
requirement to provide a public service instead of financial gain.
Speaking as a potential attendee, I’m not terribly concerned about whether BF is
run for profit or not. If the benefits of seeing MOCs, hanging out with other
LEGO nerds, and getting a discount on stuff outweigh the cost of registration,
then great.
I can even see the good side of BF being run as an openly for-profit enterprise.
If there is money being made on BF, than I would feel comfortable asking to be
compensated for bringing MOCs for display. If
my MOCs are
helping to move the turnstiles (big pic - sorry), why should I pay the same
registration fees as someone who doesn’t bring anything to BF?
But speaking as a volunteer, there is no way I’m working for free (and paying
for the privilege) just to put money in someone’s pocket.
Marc Nelson Jr.
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
You’re right - Christina/Joe/whoever could take the accumulated funds from BF
and write themselves a check for the full amount - totally legally. It would
be great if the profits were plowed into the next fest, but if someone wants
to cash out at any time, that would be their right. And that’s probably why
some people are uneasy about BF being run by a for profit enterprise.
|
I can understand this, but at the end of the day there are benefits in both
models:
1. A for-profit has an economic incentive to continue developing positive,
fulfilling events.
2. A non-profit model had a higher chance of powering through rough times, where
a for-profit might look and the numbers and have to walk away.
| |
Obviously, people who work for non-profits get paid. But they can’t liquidate
the assets of the organization and pocket the money. There’s a board, and tax
requirements and so on. I think people would feel much more comfortable
handing over their time and money if BF were run as a non-profit, with open
books and a requirement to provide a public service instead of financial
gain.
|
And if you look at the history of non-profits relative to success, there’s no
guarantee that all/most non-profits are successfully simple because of the way
the money is handled.
| |
Speaking as a potential attendee, I’m not terribly concerned about whether BF
is run for profit or not. If the benefits of seeing MOCs, hanging out with
other LEGO nerds, and getting a discount on stuff outweigh the cost of
registration, then great.
I can even see the good side of BF being run as an openly for-profit
enterprise. If there is money being made on BF, than I would feel comfortable
asking to be compensated for bringing MOCs for display. If
my MOCs are
helping to move the turnstiles (big pic - sorry), why should I pay the same
registration fees as someone who doesn’t bring anything to BF?
|
Worthy discussion question.
| |
But speaking as a volunteer, there is no way I’m working for free (and paying
for the privilege) just to put money in someone’s pocket.
|
Fair enough. That’s certainly your right to draw the line there. Personally, I
don’t tend to approach the conversation that way. I tend to approach it as what
I’m willing to do. I don’t beta test software based on whether it’s open source
or commercial, for instance. I volunteer to test because I have interest in
doing so.
Here’s the part that I like the best about this discussion though - the
community is to a point to even be having it. Think back 5 or 6 years ago... did
you imagine that there’d even be potential for any fan to be putting food on the
table from a full-time LEGO career?
Remember when Bricklink first launched and many people though of it as nothing
more than an easy way to exchange parts with friends? Who knew that it would
empower some to make real money on the parts exchange.
Did you ever think that there might be a possibility for a magazine about adult
fans to be created, much less sold?
Think forward a few more years... (hopefully) there will be more conversations
like this one because the oppportunities will be even greater. As I mentioned in
the elsewhere in this thread, if you don’t like the current conference model,
take a page from the tech community and start something like BarCamp for the LEGO community.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Webmaster BIP
Private Citizen
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I've been reading this dicussion, and have a few thoughts:
First off, a consideration of what the event coordinator has to put in:
- A fair bit of time, sure, not 1000s of hours (for one event), 1000s of
hours is a full time job... Hundreds of hours maybe
- There are upfront costs that must be paid before registration money comes
in - this is an investment - investments, especially ones of thousands of
dollars, deserve a payback
Some general thoughts:
- Any sensible event will set aside a chunk (most to all depending on how
mature the event is) to jump start the following years event, this minimizes
the investment risk
- If there really is 1000s of dollars left over, and a possibility of the
event coordinator taking some home, that's totally fine with me, though as a
(past and potential future) volunteer, I would like to know that's a
possibility. I'd also like to see some re-imbursement (free registration,
hotel, transportation costs, phone bills, etc.) for the volunteers.
- A thought on compensating volunteers - now that the door prize pool seems
smaller, and the number of attendees is larger, personally, I'd rather just
see the door prizes go to the volunteers.
- Others have mentioned GenCon, there's a commercially run event. There are
some volunteers who still pay registration, others who are refunded after
the event. But here's an interesting twist - I'm seriously considering in
the future not bothering with a GM badge, because the hassles are too much,
the compensation is minimal, I'd rather feel more freedom to cancel a game
because I'm wiped out. So there I am actually arguing against compensation
of volunteers - what it comes down to is that free registration is close to
meaningless to me compared to all my other costs of attending, I'd rather do
it all for free, or have much more of it compensated.
- There's a consideration to compensating people for bringing displays -
however - that's a sticky wicket if there ever was one. Who gets compensated
and who doesn't? BrickFest could never afford to have all the people
bringing MOCs be compensated, plus it would end up seeming horribly unfair,
some pimply kid gets compensated for his little barely modified stock set
the same as the guy who fills a van with a lovingly crafted huge display
(ok, so maybe that guy gets his gas paid also and the pimply kid just gets
in free - but where do you set the line).
- If this year's BrickFest was put on by Brick Journal as a fund-raiser for
the magazine, I think that's totally cool. I'd love to see a real print fan
magazine launch, and if running a BrickFest or two is what it takes to build
the capital to do so, what a cool way to raise that capital. Far better than
paying for a pre-subscription and never seeing your magazine (and as far as
I have heard, BrickFest has never stiffed any of it's suppliers unlike a
certain other event - that was also tied to a fan magazine....).
- I would personally prefer to only have one public show day, because that
is work that takes away from the fun. With two show days, I would be more
interested in seeing some kind of compensation, but see the above for
thoughts on what it takes for that compensation to be worthwhile.
So in the end, I think it's totally reasonable to ask the question "Where is
the money going." I think it's also totally reasonable for the response to
be any of the following "It goes into a fund for future events." "It goes
directly into my pocket." "It's none of your business." I also think it's
reasonable for the individual asking the question to respond to those
answers with anything from "Sounds cool!" to "Ok, I'm not willing to pay $60
to help you make money, see ya later!" with "Well, if that's what you're
doing, I'd like some compensation, say a free room and partial payment for
transportation." in between.
What I don't like is acusations based on speculation. If you want to
publicize the answer given (subject to any agreement the answer came with),
and your response, fine. But don't make an accusation and declaration based
on speculation.
Frank
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> - A fair bit of time, sure, not 1000s of hours (for one event), 1000s of
> hours is a full time job... Hundreds of hours maybe
I was the one who came up with thousands of hours, and I actually thought about
it before writing it which is a bit unusual with me. I was thinking of
Christina's total input of hours for the last 5 or is it 6 years. And I would
bet she has put in at least 2000 hours of time over the years. But, whether or
not, I think there has been pretty general agreement that mucho hours are needed
to do something like this.
>
>
> - There's a consideration to compensating people for bringing displays -
> however - that's a sticky wicket if there ever was one. Who gets compensated
> and who doesn't? BrickFest could never afford to have all the people
> bringing MOCs be compensated, plus it would end up seeming horribly unfair,
> some pimply kid gets compensated for his little barely modified stock set
> the same as the guy who fills a van with a lovingly crafted huge display
> (ok, so maybe that guy gets his gas paid also and the pimply kid just gets
> in free - but where do you set the line).
I think that in the future if finances due to increased public day receipts
makes it possible, I would perhaps like to see compensation for some exhibitors.
But as you say Frank, it really is a sticky wicket. What I had in mind was
perhaps compensating the shipping and insurance costs of those not able to
attend from a juried list--or from winners of other AFOL events such as
1000steine, NW Brick Con, or perhaps the new event that hopefully will be held
in California. Or one of the English or French events. I remember seeing some
stuff done by a guy in Sweeden that really blew me away--cannot remember who or
where now, but it would have been nice if it was possible for it to have made
its way to BrickFest. Perhaps something like a nomination and voting scenario
where the fans vote on things that they would really like to see. Brickshelf or
BrickJournal might be able to pull something like that off. Or let the other
international shows decide what gets sent to BrickFest and BrickFest decides
what gets sent over there--if they were wanted to. Cost of packing,
transportation, and insurance could be provided.
Perhaps the various clubs could nominate a favorite that should be included. I
think the people coming to the event really bring their stuff to show it off to
the community and that in itself is of course a form of compensation. This year
the Best of Show got compensated with a very nice model.
Another thing that --I can hear the howls of laughter now--that an event could
do is to use some of its funds to actually purchase an moc. Over the years it
could accumulate the best of the best. And those could be then loaned to other
events. Who stores them, etc are of course questions--but Dan Brown seems to
have plenty of room (LOL).
Just some thoughts--I am sure I will get slammed.
Tommy Armstrong
www.brickengraver.com
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I am really sad that these comments about Brickfest and if Christina and/or Joe
are keeping profits and if volunteers are being shafted while whomever is
profiting from Brickfest are being spoken.
At this point, I don’t care. I HAVE attended BF for the last 4 years and plan
to attend in the future. Each year I have recieved more value for my dollar
than in any other experience in LEGO, other than playing with LEGO Castle and
Pirates with my sons as they grew up.
Until I went to my first BF in ‘03, I thought I was alone in playing with LEGO
as an Adult. Oh, I knew about most of the fan envolment, but I had never been
in a room of more than 3 to 5 who actually played with LEGO.
In ‘03, I attended BF, all the MOC’s, the people, the seminars... I was so
amazed, like being a kid again. I could spend all day talking to real people
with the same interest. You cannot put a price tag on this.
Many, many thanks to Christina and Joe and all who have worked and assisted in
doing BF. Again, I don’t care about where the money went, or who was
compensated for what. I trust both Christina and Joe, period. I am selfish, I
got all I could from BF, many memories that must last me until the next BF.
Do I want to see the books, Nope, do I want to have them account to me, Nope.
I remember serving on our Church’s finance committee, one of our members quit
the commitee due to her not being able to discuss where the money went and the
need to do fund raisers. She was perfectly content that God would provide the
Church’s needs. Not reality... So if Christina and Joe are hoarding funds, ok,
as long as there is another BF.
If the registation fees for BF skyrocket due to whatever reason, I will still
not question, I will simply not attend due to the costs, not to blaming
Christina and Joe for profiteering.
-- Don GtwLUG Lugnet#1239 St. Louis, Mo. USA
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Interesting topic this....
I an not qualified to judge the issue of wether or not folks should be paid, but
here are a few things to consider.
-Workers for Non-Profit organizations are paid. (I am one)
-Gallery owners and art show organizers make money.
-Is Brickfest a not-for-profit event?
-Does it matter?
-The #s that have been presented here are so incomplete, that Brickfest could
have broken even, lost $ or made a profit.
-I would like to see a financial overview of the event, but that’s just my
peculiar curiosity, and if it is a not a non-profit event, then no one has a
right to demand that kind of information.
-Do Joe or Christina want to let us know what the financials were for Brickfest?
Anyway I am just curious. The wife and I are going to do our best to attend
Brickfest next year wether or not the organizer makes some $. If it is even
half as good as the pictures suggest, the registration is totally worth it.
Definately a service worth paying for.
Karl
Who wishes he was at Brickfest 06.
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Anthony,
You don't know me from Adam, I lurk more than anything. But I had to
respond to this post.
First off, I have zero knowledge of how the event was organized. I went
in '04 and that was it. I don't know if anyone got paid or not.
But I have been involved in organizing and running conventions from 30
to 3000 people. I've run small local game cons and been part of
national genre conventions similar to Brickfest. It's pretty obvious
that you haven't. The amount of background work that goes into a
convention is staggering. I suspect that the contract negotiations for
the hotel took months, and probably won't be sorted out for another 3-4
weeks. Finding, recruiting and keeping all those volunteers is a
full-time job in itself. Publications and mailings are insanely
expensive (and don't kid yourself if you think that all it takes is a
copy of Publisher or Quark and a laser printer), and most people who
volunteer for that job only ever do it once. For a 300 person sf con
you could expect to spend well over $1000 just on mailings. Program
books are another animal altogether. And then someone has to actually
schedule all those seminars and contests and whatnot that appear in the
program guide, they don't organize themselves.
And this doesn't even begin to compare to the petty politics and
disagreements that come with any organized event of more than 2 people.
And then there's the strain on personal finances and relationships.
To say the least, burnout is very common among event organizers.
As someone who has been attending various types of conventions for the
last 25+ years, I would be THRILLED to go to a convention that has grown
to the point that it could afford to compensate it's planners for the
time they spend working on it. You know why? Because it will make the
organizers happier. And if they're happy, the event will run smoother.
And more importantly, it's more likely that there will be *another*
event the following year. It would be very easy for Christina or
whoever to just say "screw it" and there wouldn't be another Brickfest.
You seem to have confused "the right to attend a hobby event" with the
privilege of attending said event. By definition it's a hobby, and not
an unalienable right.
I don't think anyone's pockets are getting filled by running Brickfest
and I don't think they're in it for the money (and no one has
established as fact that anyone is getting paid for this). If they
wanted money, they'd be better off working at McDonalds because the pay
would be better, the work would be easier, and they'd have less
pettiness to deal with.
I suggest you volunteer to work on a con. It's a great way to meet
people, you get to learn a lot about how an event works, and you get to
help mold it into something bigger, better and more fun than it was
before. It's a lot of work, but you come away from it with a better
appreciation of the event and a great sense of satisfaction.
Jon Gilchrist
Running Cons for longer than is healthy, and I still haven't learned to
say "no".
Anthony Sava wrote:
[snip a bunch of stuff]
> No, I refuse to go to Brickfest if it's no longer a passion of the heart alone.
> Flame me if you'd like, but its just the way I feel. Christina has worked very
> hard, as Joe has too, I'm sure (I wasn't there but I know Joe and he's a good
> guy). But hard work or not, I'm not going to be part and parcel to paying them
> for me to have a place to put up my work. I'm willing to reimburse them for the
> cost of the space, but that's as far as I'll go - I'm not going to fill anyone's
> pocket just for the right to attend a hobby event.
>
> --Anthony
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My Brickfest Photos:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=203787
Hope you enjoy viewing these as much as I did taking them and being there.
-- Don GtwLUG Lugnet#1239 St. Louis, Mo., USA
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In lugnet.events, Don Cox wrote:
> My Brickfest Photos:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=203787
>
> Hope you enjoy viewing these as much as I did taking them and being there.
>
> -- Don GtwLUG Lugnet#1239 St. Louis, Mo., USA
Hi Don and all,
I finally uploaded all my brickfest photos on brickshelf too .. a lot of work
required as they all needed to be resized.
Do check them out too!
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=205007
I too had a great time at Brickfest 2006!
cheers,
"THE" Diana
dvirus
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so that just leaves
organizing the event as a whole.
No, I refuse to go to Brickfest if it’s no longer a passion of the heart
alone. Flame me if you’d like, but its just the way I feel. Christina has
worked very hard, as Joe has too, I’m sure (I wasn’t there but I know Joe and
he’s a good guy). But hard work or not, I’m not going to be part and parcel
to paying them for me to have a place to put up my work. I’m willing to
reimburse them for the cost of the space, but that’s as far as I’ll go - I’m
not going to fill anyone’s pocket just for the right to attend a hobby event.
--Anthony
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Its not my intention to flame at all. I was just making some observations. I am
really just tangentially associated with the event. But I am aware that “just
organizing the event as a whole” is no small thing. And it is my opinion that
considering the amount of work and the risks involved, that it is not fair that
that person should not be compensated. Whether or not Christina or Joe have
actually realized any compensation out of the event, I have no idea. But,I will
surely not begrudge them if they did. They have provided a great service to a
good number of the members of the community. Whether Christina’s (or Joe’s)
motives are “passion of the heart” or money or a combination of the two, really
makes no difference in my opinion as long as the end product is excellent--which
it has been.And has been getting better with each iteration. The most stable
institutions are usually a combination of the two.
“But hard work or not, I’m not going to be part and parcel
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to paying them for me to have a place to put up my work.
|
I really think BF is a bit more than a place to show your work.
“Passion of the heart alone” is great on the honeymoon, but for a lasting
marriage it takes a bit more IMHO.
Tommy Armstrong
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
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I’m sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off of
the event itself, compensation or not, I’m not going. If this was the case
this year, I’m glad I didn’t go.
Yes, there are groups making money off of Brickfest - the hotels, the brick
bazaar sellers, etc. But Brickfest itself is supposed to be about the
comraderie, as you said. Quite honestly I can’t see how any one person
spends thousands of man hours on putting a single Brickfest together - all of
the events are fan-driven with the exception of the big group meeting/LEGO
Q&A. Yeah, I’m sure there’s plenty of behind-the-scenes stuff, but last I
looked every theme had its’ own volunteer organizer(s), so that just leaves
organizing the event as a whole.
No, I refuse to go to Brickfest if it’s no longer a passion of the heart
alone. Flame me if you’d like, but its just the way I feel. Christina has
worked very hard, as Joe has too, I’m sure (I wasn’t there but I know Joe and
he’s a good guy). But hard work or not, I’m not going to be part and parcel
to paying them for me to have a place to put up my work. I’m willing to
reimburse them for the cost of the space, but that’s as far as I’ll go - I’m
not going to fill anyone’s pocket just for the right to attend a hobby event.
--Anthony
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Anthony,
I think you may be underestimating the amount of time and effort that goes into
putting something like this on. Maybe not literally thousands of hours for any
one person, but for somebody like Christina or Joe and maybe others too, most
defintely many hundreds of hours over the course of a year go into organizing an
event on this scale.
While it is important for the community to remember that this is all a hobby and
a passion for us, the “Hey, let’s all just play” attitude that I often hear
simply reflects naivete of the realities. Sure, for hundreds of AFOLs, BrickFest
is an opportunity to come along play for 72 hours. Sure, most attendees are very
helpful at the event, perhaps helping moving tables around, manning
registration, showing off MOCs to the public and tearing down on Sunday. And
without all that help, the event would never work as smoothly as it does.
However, for the people who actually organize and set up the event, BrickFest is
the realization of months and months of advance preparation. It takes up lots
valuable time - time that could otherwise be spent with friends and family,
cultivating interpersonal relationships, maybe putting in that 110% effort
needed to get that promotion at work, or maybe building LEGO. For those
individuals who are most deeply involved, there is so much to do that there may
be scant time to actually enjoy the event itself.
Maybe not everyone who gets involved knows quite what they’re getting into, but
as a whole, the BrickFest staff works as hard as they can because they want to
put on an event that was even better than last year’s. Because they take pride
in being part of the biggest, baddest, coolest, most talked-about AFOL LEGO
event in the whole of the USA. It isn’t a committment that volunteers are
resentful to make (otherwise they wouldn’t volunteer), but make no mistake - it
is a genuine sacrifice made for the community.
Please don’t take this as a flame, I’m not trying to shout you down or vent
frustration at anyone or anything. I just think it is important that the AFOL
community gets a sense of how much work it takes to pull off an event like this.
I was involved in BrickFest in 04 and 05, and I had a great time but I simply
needed a year off this year. I’m hoping to be involved again in 2007 in some
capacity, because I want to help out again, but mainly because I know that being
personally involved in a successful event is hugely satisfying experience. I
encourage anyone who wants to get involved in 07 to do so. We need experienced
BF veterans, and we need fresh ideas from newbies.
As for where all the money goes: What I’ve been told during events I was
involved in - any surplus money from BrickFest is typically set aside to help
fund the following year’s event.
I think the issue of compensation may be a more relevant for volunteers than
regular attendees. If you are an attendee, I’m not sure why it is so important
to know where your 60 bucks went, so long as you had a good time.
On the other hand, if you are considering volunteering, it is perfectly
understandable that you’d want to know to what extent you might be compensated.
And if you aren’t going to be compensated, it is only natural to want to know if
anyone else working on the project is being compensated.
I don’t think it is realistic for the community to expect to see how every last
dollar and cent was spent. But it is also clear from posts on this thread that
organizers of future community events (BrickFest or otherwise) need to be clear
and transparent in terms of where they stand on where the money is going to go.
regards
Magnus
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
> Yes, there are groups making money off of Brickfest - the hotels, the brick
> bazaar sellers, etc. But Brickfest itself is supposed to be about the
> comraderie, as you said. Quite honestly I can't see how any one person
> spends thousands of man hours on putting a single Brickfest together - all of
> the events are fan-driven with the exception of the big group meeting/LEGO
> Q&A. Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of behind-the-scenes stuff, but last I
> looked every theme had its' own volunteer organizer(s), so that just leaves
> organizing the event as a whole.
Anthony, all due respect when I say this - I think you're woefully
underestimating the time required to put on such an event. I'm in no way
speaking for Christina or the BF volunteers, but I know from my own experience
of trying to organize groups and events that it's "Death by 1000 paper cuts".
Let's think about what an event organizer might have to be responsible for
beyond the specific theme content itself:
- Locating and securing the venue
- Signing agreements, possibly working with lawyers
- Arranging for the appropriate amount of tables, chairs, etc.
- Organizing, scheduling and overseeing a group of volunteers from around the
country in multiple time zones with multiple time slots to work together
- Writing copy for event programs
- Final proofing all printed materials
- Approving print materials (this alone could take hours on hours)
- Working with fire marshal or facility managers on building/safety code issues
- Overseeing initial Web site requirements and then implementation
- Planning food, if necessary
- Working with vendors for the bazaar
- Working with LEGO employees
- Tracking down missing deliveries/packages
- Choosing name badge styles/design
- Costing out said name badges, and working on design work, printing, delivery,
etc.
- Choosing speaker line up and building an event schedule
- Tracking down speakers to get technical requirements
- Ensure rooms have necessary technical requirements
- Finding radios for the volunteers to speak to each other
- Choosing and producing volunteer thank you gift
- Writing up Web site content
My list could go on for as long as my fingers could continue to type. And each
one of those items could be hours on hours of work. Sure, working with the
printer to deliver master files, sign off on proofs, accept final delivery,
double check final deliver, and then follow-up if there are any issues may seem
like a trivial task, and sometimes it might be. But when you stack 1000 trivial
tasks together, the time adds up. Fast. Really really fast. I once spent 6 hours
on the phone trying to organize the details of a single dinner for 10
colleagues. Or heck, ever tried to pick a restaurant for lunch with more than 3
people?
Saying something like "so that just leaves organizing the event as a whole" is
like saying "Building a house is just putting up a few walls, what's the big
deal?".
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Webmaster - BIP
Private Citizen
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In lugnet.events, Jake McKee wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
>
> > Yes, there are groups making money off of Brickfest - the hotels, the brick
> > bazaar sellers, etc. But Brickfest itself is supposed to be about the
> > comraderie, as you said. Quite honestly I can't see how any one person
> > spends thousands of man hours on putting a single Brickfest together - all of
> > the events are fan-driven with the exception of the big group meeting/LEGO
> > Q&A. Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of behind-the-scenes stuff, but last I
> > looked every theme had its' own volunteer organizer(s), so that just leaves
> > organizing the event as a whole.
>
> Anthony, all due respect when I say this - I think you're woefully
> underestimating the time required to put on such an event. I'm in no way
> speaking for Christina or the BF volunteers, but I know from my own experience
> of trying to organize groups and events that it's "Death by 1000 paper cuts".
>
> Let's think about what an event organizer might have to be responsible for
> beyond the specific theme content itself:
>
> - Locating and securing the venue
> - Signing agreements, possibly working with lawyers
> - Arranging for the appropriate amount of tables, chairs, etc.
> - Organizing, scheduling and overseeing a group of volunteers from around the
> country in multiple time zones with multiple time slots to work together
> - Writing copy for event programs
> - Final proofing all printed materials
> - Approving print materials (this alone could take hours on hours)
> - Working with fire marshal or facility managers on building/safety code issues
> - Overseeing initial Web site requirements and then implementation
> - Planning food, if necessary
> - Working with vendors for the bazaar
> - Working with LEGO employees
> - Tracking down missing deliveries/packages
> - Choosing name badge styles/design
> - Costing out said name badges, and working on design work, printing, delivery,
> etc.
> - Choosing speaker line up and building an event schedule
> - Tracking down speakers to get technical requirements
> - Ensure rooms have necessary technical requirements
> - Finding radios for the volunteers to speak to each other
> - Choosing and producing volunteer thank you gift
> - Writing up Web site content
>
> My list could go on for as long as my fingers could continue to type. And each
> one of those items could be hours on hours of work. Sure, working with the
> printer to deliver master files, sign off on proofs, accept final delivery,
> double check final deliver, and then follow-up if there are any issues may seem
> like a trivial task, and sometimes it might be. But when you stack 1000 trivial
> tasks together, the time adds up. Fast. Really really fast. I once spent 6 hours
> on the phone trying to organize the details of a single dinner for 10
> colleagues. Or heck, ever tried to pick a restaurant for lunch with more than 3
> people?
>
> Saying something like "so that just leaves organizing the event as a whole" is
> like saying "Building a house is just putting up a few walls, what's the big
> deal?".
>
> Jake
> ---
> Jake McKee
> Webmaster - BIP
> Private Citizen
There you have it Todd and you people who want to put on an event in
California--pretty much a blue print for what needs to be done (+ getting Jake's
fingers a massage so he could keep typing). As I said when first started down
this thread--I do not begrudge anyone who pulls off an event such as Joe did
this year of making some money out of it--just as would not begrudge Christina
if she does so next year or in years past. It is a very time consuming job, Just
the hours spent by them dealing with a hard headed guy like me on something as
trivial as name badges--as Jake says--can take hours. Making sure the list is
correct, the design correct, the bricks are available, etc., etc.
In fact,thinking about it, you guys might want to just hire someone to run the
thing allowing them a % of the take. The ultimate goal is after all having the
event--not necessarily organizing the event. But however it works out, there
needs to be a person in charge who makes the final decisions, whose signature is
on the contract for the hotel, for the insurance, for the security, for the
catering, And in the end,that person is at risk if something falls apart--for
taking that risk compensation should be paid if at all possible.
BricksWest today would still be cranking if not for the financial side of the
game. I happened to go to the first one--a complete non-LEGO person just to see
what it was all about--and really everyone had a great time, from what I could
tell. Peyton and I thought it the strangest thing when a whole room full of
people stood up and cheered when some exec. from LEGO pulled a Santa Fe Chief
train engine out of a box. Now that is brand loyalty when you cheer a train
engine.
Tommy Armstrong
Who now kind of understands why those people cheered for a toy train engine.
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This reply is not targeted at Jake or any specific person. It was just
convenient to reply to Jake's post.
Well, I thought I'd be done with this thread, but it looks like I'm going to
have to put out a fire before it explodes. I really don't want to log on to
lugnet and find someone belittling me saying "I can't believe you said that,
you're a moron for thinking that cause I was there and you weren't."
For some reason people are taking this sentance:
"Quite honestly I can't see how any one person spends thousands of man hours on
putting a single Brickfest together"
To mean:
"Putting on Brickfest is easy and a monkey can do it."
If someone worked 8 hours a day, every day, it would take them 125 days to reach
1,000 hours. Any organizer of a Brickfest-scale event that works that hard is
not utilizing their time wisely, especially since Brickfest is put on by a horde
of volunteers.
I'll believe it takes the head-organizer 100 hours to put on a brickfest. I'll
even believe 200.
Has Christina spent a cumulative "thousands of hours" on the events in the
history of Brickfest? I dunno.
But anyone expecting me to believe that any ONE person spends A THOUSAND hours
on ONE Brickfest is severely overestimating my gullability.
Some people seem to think they know every thing I've ever done, and seem to
think I have never been involved with organizing an event. Some people claim to
know my every thought and detail in my head. Sucks to be them.
--Anthony
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
> This reply is not targeted at Jake or any specific person. It was just
> convenient to reply to Jake's post.
>
> Well, I thought I'd be done with this thread, but it looks like I'm going to
> have to put out a fire before it explodes. I really don't want to log on to
> lugnet and find someone belittling me saying "I can't believe you said that,
> you're a moron for thinking that cause I was there and you weren't."
>
> For some reason people are taking this sentance:
>
> "Quite honestly I can't see how any one person spends thousands of man hours on
> putting a single Brickfest together"
>
> To mean:
>
> "Putting on Brickfest is easy and a monkey can do it."
>
> If someone worked 8 hours a day, every day, it would take them 125 days to reach
> 1,000 hours. Any organizer of a Brickfest-scale event that works that hard is
> not utilizing their time wisely, especially since Brickfest is put on by a horde
> of volunteers.
>
> I'll believe it takes the head-organizer 100 hours to put on a brickfest. I'll
> even believe 200.
>
> Has Christina spent a cumulative "thousands of hours" on the events in the
> history of Brickfest? I dunno.
>
> But anyone expecting me to believe that any ONE person spends A THOUSAND hours
> on ONE Brickfest is severely overestimating my gullability.
>
> Some people seem to think they know every thing I've ever done, and seem to
> think I have never been involved with organizing an event. Some people claim to
> know my every thought and detail in my head. Sucks to be them.
>
> --Anthony
Anthony, I was the one who made that statement about thousands of hours, and if
you look at it, I was saying thousands for Christina, hundreds for Joe. I was
talking about cumulative hours for Christina, and feel confident that over
all the BrickFests, she has spent that many hours. I know for a fact that Joe
spent many hundred. Heck it takes 12 hours to drive from Raleigh to DC just to
check out the event site. Which I am sure Joe did multiple times.
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Folks,
'Sbeen a little while since I've been in here, and I must say, honestly I can't
leave you kids alone for a second! :)
I've decided to reply to Anthony's post, not because my words are necessarily
directed at him, but because...well, I'm not sure, but there seems to be a
"Tony-roast" going on around here somewhere. More to the point, I believe it's
time we went over some basics in Internet communications.
Permit me to clarify something right off the bat. This post is not intended to
flame anyone or stir up anything. If you feel like you've got some (wait for it,
wait for it...) impressive retort lined up for me in reply, I would most humbly
request that you first go read the paper or build something or browse BrickShelf
and cool off. Then you'll know for certain or not if those words that are
supposed to knock us all on our backsides are really what you want to post.
So, first issue. I have had the priviledge of knowing Anthony Sava for nearly 5
years (in fact, 18 days short, Tony). I know the man well enough to state that
his words were not meant to tear anyone down. As for what he *did* intend...well
I like to do the out-moded, non-fashionable thing and give the man the benefit
of the doubt until I can hear his side of the story, in person, and make a more
reasonable judgement. Moving on.
Second issue. Internet communications. I'd like to thank a few level-headed
members of this forum for restricting their response solely to Tony's points and
not what they *think* he was implying. In my opinion, the courtesy level of
Internet communications outside the realm of busioness has been dropping both
precipitously and daily, and continues to do so. At the risk of seeming
patronizing, let us all remember the following about Internet communications:
1. We usually (Internet cameras notwithstanding) cannot see the other person's
face.
2. Statements made in chatrooms and message forums are devoid of inflections, tones, facial expressions, and body language, thus drastically reducing our chances of deriving the precise meaning of the messenger's words. The person making the post or reply has the tedious task of keeping their words simple, thus exposing their words to over-interpretation, or making it more complex, thus adding confusion to what they are trying to say. It's why people on the Internet tend to seemingly overqualify everything (like me :) )
That's pretty much it. Oh, one thing more: for the record, I have been involved
in setting up for conventions, mostly those involving role-playing and SF
fandom, but that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away (my God, has it
been that long??). All which has been said about the effort that goes into such
an event is dead-on absolutely correct from what I've read. But, for the sake of
argument, if I did not possess this experience, would that necessarily
disqualify me from making any observations about it whatsoever? Of course not.
One of the purposes of this type of forum is to promote communication, not
discourage it.
May your MOCs continue to arrive at the event safely,
- Pat
P.S. I don't know what happened with formatting (why #2 is so "strung-out"), but
it was not intentional. - P
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
> This reply is not targeted at Jake or any specific person. It was just
> convenient to reply to Jake's post.
>
> Well, I thought I'd be done with this thread, but it looks like I'm going to
> have to put out a fire before it explodes. I really don't want to log on to
> lugnet and find someone belittling me saying "I can't believe you said that,
> you're a moron for thinking that cause I was there and you weren't."
>
> For some reason people are taking this sentance:
>
> "Quite honestly I can't see how any one person spends thousands of man hours on
> putting a single Brickfest together"
>
> To mean:
>
> "Putting on Brickfest is easy and a monkey can do it."
>
> If someone worked 8 hours a day, every day, it would take them 125 days to reach
> 1,000 hours. Any organizer of a Brickfest-scale event that works that hard is
> not utilizing their time wisely, especially since Brickfest is put on by a horde
> of volunteers.
>
> I'll believe it takes the head-organizer 100 hours to put on a brickfest. I'll
> even believe 200.
>
> Has Christina spent a cumulative "thousands of hours" on the events in the
> history of Brickfest? I dunno.
>
> But anyone expecting me to believe that any ONE person spends A THOUSAND hours
> on ONE Brickfest is severely overestimating my gullability.
>
> Some people seem to think they know every thing I've ever done, and seem to
> think I have never been involved with organizing an event. Some people claim to
> know my every thought and detail in my head. Sucks to be them.
>
> --Anthony
Anthony,
I appreciate your attempts to calculate the amount of hours an organizer might
put into an event. Indeed it is difficult to fathom the number of hours a person
is willing to contribute to something.
Allow me a moment to quantify the number hours I put into another hobby of mine.
Many know that I volunteer with the Coast Guard Auxiliary. We are required,
though many volunteers fail to do it, to report the amount of time we put in to
the effort. There is an award given to each individual that racks up 750 hours
each year. To break that down into a relative amount of time that is over 2
hours per day, for 365 days in a single year. In the past I have failed to count
my time on task adequately. I have estimated hours and failed to account for the
many 5 and 10 minute phone calls where I am on the job. Of course, all of my
on-the-water time is accurately recorded so that my tasks with Coast Guard
support, Search-and-Rescue, boating safety, and public education are recorded
for the limited amount of funding that the Auxiliary receives. Despite this I
have three years consecutively received the award.
This year, however, I set myself a personal goal that I am happy to report I
have been dillegent about recording my hours. To date, I have nearly 1100 hours
and it is only September. I have spent at least 1 hour each evening responding
to email from many Auxiliarist and Active duty personnel that I have had the
pleasure to work with. I have attended 3 training sessions where I was principle
insructor. Each session earns me about 100 hours, not counting the 5 to 6 hours
of sleep I get over the 5 day training. Of course, there is the pre-course
preparation and contacting of students. There is the post class assignments that
are graded. There is the January pre-training insrtuctor meeting where we work
out the details of the course for the year. Ultimately, the USCG could not
afford me if they paid me. I would be paid at the GS13 or 15 level for the work
I do for them. And of course, I am one of the more involved individuals, but by
no means a top hours getter. There are men and women who go on a 8 hour patrol
everyday of the week keeping this nation safe and the boater out of trouble.
So your estimate of 100 or 200 hours to organize an event is completely off the
mark. It is possible to do that each month for a year before the event comes
off. I dare say that if the head organizer limited themselves to that many hours
over the course of a year, the event would SUCK, big time.
So while I appreciate your estimate, please do not feel I am coming down hard on
you. I simply wish to impress upon you how naive and wrong you come across on
this to others. I hope Joe or Christina, or any other organizer will chime in.
Or perhaps they are too put off by your low estimate of the work they have put
in for all of us.
Sincerely and with all due respect,
Todd Thuma
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> this to others. I hope Joe or Christina, or any other organizer will chime in.
> Or perhaps they are too put off by your low estimate of the work they have put
> in for all of us.
Hi Todd,
Though I don't know whether it's appropriate that I take a hand in this
discussion, but since I'm organizing events too (1000steine-Land), I can second
your thoughts by all means. I wasn't counting hours, and I doubt I'm able to
round up the amount of time, but I guess it's enough to start with the basic
requirements:
- Discussion with co-organizers: What are requirements of a contemplable
location? ~2 hours
- researching a location which fits the needs (online): ~5 hours
- visiting the event location four times, including driving and talking to the
employee there about general things: 4x ~6h = 24 hours. At home beforehand:
Discussion with co-organizer about what we need to adress to the location's
director, 4x ~1h = 4 hours
- declaring the event to the authorities, including all the paperwork: 3 hours
- taking out the policy, incl. all the paperwork, incl. collecting everyone's
model information, incl. demanding again and again... 8 hours
- drawing up an account for the fiscal authorities: 4 hours
That's already 50 hours without organizing anything that has to do with the
event itself...
Leg Godt!
Rene
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Anthony Sava wrote:
>
> I'm sorry but the minute an organizer of Brickfest starts making money off of
> the event itself, compensation or not, I'm not going. If this was the case this
> year, I'm glad I didn't go.
I don't think anyone got paid, but if they did, I wouldn't be upset.
> Yes, there are groups making money off of Brickfest - the hotels, the brick
> bazaar sellers, etc. But Brickfest itself is supposed to be about the
> comraderie, as you said. Quite honestly I can't see how any one person spends
> thousands of man hours on putting a single Brickfest together - all of the
> events are fan-driven with the exception of the big group meeting/LEGO Q&A.
> Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of behind-the-scenes stuff, but last I looked
> every theme had its' own volunteer organizer(s), so that just leaves organizing
> the event as a whole.
*"Just"*?
You really have no clue whatsoever on the difficulty of organizing such
an event, do you? Until you do it yourself (on BF's current scale), do
NOT complain about or belittle the amount of time it takes.
> Now let's say for the sake of argument that the Brickfest organizers are making
> a profit from Brickfest. Brickfest has now become no better than a zoo.
>
> Brickfest invites AFOLs to attend. They pay their dues, part of which, as we've
> decided for arguments sake goes right into the organizer's pocket. Certain
> AFOLs then decide to take on even more responsibility and volunteer their
> services to do the Brickfest organizer's job in organizing the different themes
> of the event for no compensation.
>
> And then Brickfest invites the public, who also pay their dues, to come see
> what? The AFOLs creations, which would not be there if the AFOLs had not come.
> So the public pays their dues, comes in and looks at all the animals in their
> cages, I mean, AFOLs and their creations. A for-profit organization in this
> situation is getting money from three sources: The public, The exihibits, and
> the help (by saving money by not paying the help). • >
> In essence, the attending AFOLs are making money for the Brickfest organizers
> without making money for themselves. They are a perverted combination of zoo
> exhibit, natural resource and employee.
>
> A not-for-profit organization, however, would be getting a boost of
> reembursement from the public, as well as reenbursement from the exhibits, and a
> load off their backs by getting volunteer help.
>
> The difference is a side-show versus a public exhibition.
You don't really understand not-for-profit organizations, do you? They
can still pay wages to employees (any decently-sized NFP HAS to, in
order to keep people around consistently enough to get things done).
Not that I think anyone at BF is getting compensated, mind you. But
even if they were, if the BF org was an NFP, they could *still* pay some
wages to people.
--
Tom Stangl
* http://www.vfaq.com/
* DSM Visual FAQ home
* 90 Talon AWD
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In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
No, I refuse to go to Brickfest if it’s no longer a passion of the heart
alone. Flame me if you’d like, but its just the way I feel. Christina has
worked very hard, as Joe has too, I’m sure (I wasn’t there but I know Joe and
he’s a good guy). But hard work or not, I’m not going to be part and parcel
to paying them for me to have a place to put up my work. I’m willing to
reimburse them for the cost of the space, but that’s as far as I’ll go - I’m
not going to fill anyone’s pocket just for the right to attend a hobby event.
|
What seems strange to me is people with such conviction about this not having
asked for the financial details before attending. Seems that’s the best time
to find out.
ROSCO
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In lugnet.events, Ross Crawford wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Anthony Sava wrote:
| |
No, I refuse to go to Brickfest if it’s no longer a passion of the heart
alone. Flame me if you’d like, but its just the way I feel. Christina has
worked very hard, as Joe has too, I’m sure (I wasn’t there but I know Joe
and he’s a good guy). But hard work or not, I’m not going to be part and
parcel to paying them for me to have a place to put up my work. I’m willing
to reimburse them for the cost of the space, but that’s as far as I’ll go -
I’m not going to fill anyone’s pocket just for the right to attend a hobby
event.
|
What seems strange to me is people with such conviction about this not having
asked for the financial details before attending. Seems that’s the best
time to find out.
ROSCO
|
It is no different than our toilets flushing in the opposite direction. We like
to pay our money first, then find out what we spent it on. ;)
Jude
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
I guess I’m one of those people - not that I complained, I just didn’t go
because I couldn’t afford it. The last BF I went to (in ‘04), I probably
spent around $125 total for registration, t-shirts, and bricks, and I doubt
I’ve ever spent more than $200 at a BF. So I’m not complaining just to
complain, the cost is actually a dealbreaker for me. I was hoping to
volunteer at this year’s event and attend at a free or reduced rate, but I
was told that volunteers had to pay full price for registration.
Is it really a problem that BF isn’t charging enough for registration? By my
math, BF took in about $24K from registration fees and $21K from the public,
plus a few bucks from merchandise sales and seller fees, but lets say $45K
total. If the exhibit space was free with the room reservations, what do you
need all that money for? My wife does a lot of event planning for a
nonprofit, and she couldn’t figure it out.
I’m sorry if anyone takes offense at these questions, but I know other AFOLs
are asking the same thing.
Marc Nelson Jr.
|
Marc,
Yes, volunteers pay their full way. In the spirit of full disclosure, as an
organizer, I recevied one embroidered shirt from Joe as part of an effort to
place all coordinators in one common, distinctive shirt, so that they could be
easily identified. There was also about 2 dozen to 30 red, engraved bricks
identifying the coordinators by name tag as to what they coordinated. I did not
pay for these items. I assume that Joe paid for these out of the registration or
public day proceeds.
I paid full registration. I paid my portion of the hotel rooms I shared with
others to keep costs down. I also paid for a plane ticket and parking that cost
me about $300 when all was done. I paid for Metro to go from Regan National to
West Falls Church station and a cab from there to the hotel at about $15.00.
As for your calculations on the revenue generated by registration and public
day, I think you are a little bit off. If 400 people paid 10 dollars each that
would be $4000. Since the registration was $60 per person for the three day
event, the revenue would be $24,000. Out of that many items were purchased. The
bag, the engraved bricks, the bricks to engrave, a pre-event mailing, the raffle
tickets, the sets to raffle, etc. Your $60 dollars bought you a lot and the
money goes fast when you start adding up the other materials that were bought.
From that pile of money a projector was rented at $500 per day plus another $80
for screens for the animation festival and the presentations. There were
additional charges there. Break that down per person and about $5.00 of each
registration went for presentation equipment. There are many more hidden costs
to these events that only Christina and Joe can chare with you. Oh, and Steve
Barile too. Ask the organizers of other conventions.
Now on to public day. Public day got started because GMU was charging more and
more each year to use the “free” space Christina managed. She will not divulge
costs, but they were in thousands. Where did that money come from? Christina
walked a tight-rope keeping GMU space happy and funded out of the public day
ticket admission. Ask me and I would make public day free, but then who would
pay the facility for its use.
The hotel got paid, believe me, when it came to BrickFest. There was a guarantee
that Joe signed on the number of hotel room bookings. If he failed to produce
the minimum amount, then Joe would have been out a significant amount of money.
Anyone else willing to take on a serious financial burden such as this. Anyone
willing to put up the old homestead to underwrite this?
Fortunately, you the fans came through and the number of hotel room bookings
exceeded expectations. The hotel was very happy, but the hotel got paid. Thanks
for all those that paid the excessive drink prices at the bar and for the room
service. They did better that weekend than in the history of the hotel.
Oh and how much do you think a hotel charged for the meal Friday night. How
about $20 to $40 per head. I cannot say how much. I am not privey to these
financial details. I am certain the hotel charged for the water service too.
They all do. There was also an agreement with the owners of the BrickFest name
for the rights to use it. Want to know more, ask the owners and Joe.
Nothing is free. Be thankfull that there are individuals like Christina, and
Joe, and Steve B., and NorthWest BrickCon, and etc, that are willing to stick
their necks out financially to make these things happen for the rest of us.
If you, and none of this has been directed to Marc specifically, want to
organize and event, please do so. The community needs you to volunteer and step
up. It is easy to quarterback this from the sidelines, but the reality and the
specifics are much more complicated then anyone can understand until you have
participated. I remain clueless to some of the financials because the Event
Coordinators have kept it that way. If I ever stick my neck out as far as they
have, I promise I will not keep the details of the money in the dark. They will
become a part of the public record!
Just my $0.02.
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
I guess I’m one of those people - not that I complained, I just didn’t go
because I couldn’t afford it. The last BF I went to (in ‘04), I probably
spent around $125 total for registration, t-shirts, and bricks, and I doubt
I’ve ever spent more than $200 at a BF. So I’m not complaining just to
complain, the cost is actually a dealbreaker for me. I was hoping to
volunteer at this year’s event and attend at a free or reduced rate, but I
was told that volunteers had to pay full price for registration.
Is it really a problem that BF isn’t charging enough for registration? By my
math, BF took in about $24K from registration fees and $21K from the public,
plus a few bucks from merchandise sales and seller fees, but lets say $45K
total. If the exhibit space was free with the room reservations, what do you
need all that money for? My wife does a lot of event planning for a
nonprofit, and she couldn’t figure it out.
I’m sorry if anyone takes offense at these questions, but I know other AFOLs
are asking the same thing.
Marc Nelson Jr.
|
Marc,
Yes, volunteers pay their full way. In the spirit of full disclosure, as an
organizer, I recevied one embroidered shirt from Joe as part of an effort to
place all coordinators in one common, distinctive shirt, so that they could
be easily identified. There was also about 2 dozen to 30 red, engraved bricks
identifying the coordinators by name tag as to what they coordinated. I did
not pay for these items. I assume that Joe paid for these out of the
registration or public day proceeds.
I paid full registration. I paid my portion of the hotel rooms I shared with
others to keep costs down. I also paid for a plane ticket and parking that
cost me about $300 when all was done. I paid for Metro to go from Regan
National to West Falls Church station and a cab from there to the hotel at
about $15.00.
As for your calculations on the revenue generated by registration and public
day, I think you are a little bit off. If 400 people paid 10 dollars each
that would be $4000. Since the registration was $60 per person for the three
day event, the revenue would be $24,000. Out of that many items were
purchased. The bag, the engraved bricks, the bricks to engrave, a pre-event
mailing, the raffle tickets, the sets to raffle, etc. Your $60 dollars bought
you a lot and the money goes fast when you start adding up the other
materials that were bought. From that pile of money a projector was rented at
$500 per day plus another $80 for screens for the animation festival and the
presentations. There were additional charges there. Break that down per
person and about $5.00 of each registration went for presentation equipment.
There are many more hidden costs to these events that only Christina and Joe
can chare with you. Oh, and Steve Barile too. Ask the organizers of other
conventions.
|
Joe’s number for public attendance was
3000. I thought admission was
$7, for a total of $21000, but if admission was $10, that makes $30000.
| |
Now on to public day. Public day got started because GMU was charging more
and more each year to use the “free” space Christina managed. She will not
divulge costs, but they were in thousands. Where did that money come from?
Christina walked a tight-rope keeping GMU space happy and funded out of the
public day ticket admission. Ask me and I would make public day free, but
then who would pay the facility for its use.
The hotel got paid, believe me, when it came to BrickFest. There was a
guarantee that Joe signed on the number of hotel room bookings. If he failed
to produce the minimum amount, then Joe would have been out a significant
amount of money. Anyone else willing to take on a serious financial burden
such as this. Anyone willing to put up the old homestead to underwrite this?
Fortunately, you the fans came through and the number of hotel room bookings
exceeded expectations. The hotel was very happy, but the hotel got paid.
Thanks for all those that paid the excessive drink prices at the bar and for
the room service. They did better that weekend than in the history of the
hotel.
Oh and how much do you think a hotel charged for the meal Friday night. How
about $20 to $40 per head. I cannot say how much. I am not privey to these
financial details. I am certain the hotel charged for the water service too.
They all do. There was also an agreement with the owners of the BrickFest
name for the rights to use it. Want to know more, ask the owners and Joe.
|
I am curious about that. Who are the owners of the Brickfest trademark and how
much are they compensated? Wasn’t BF founded by WAMALUG?
| |
Nothing is free. Be thankfull that there are individuals like Christina, and
Joe, and Steve B., and NorthWest BrickCon, and etc, that are willing to stick
their necks out financially to make these things happen for the rest of us.
If you, and none of this has been directed to Marc specifically, want to
organize and event, please do so. The community needs you to volunteer and
step up. It is easy to quarterback this from the sidelines, but the reality
and the specifics are much more complicated then anyone can understand until
you have participated. I remain clueless to some of the financials because
the Event Coordinators have kept it that way. If I ever stick my neck out as
far as they have, I promise I will not keep the details of the money in the
dark. They will become a part of the public record!
Just my $0.02.
|
As I mentioned, I was willing to volunteer at this year’s BF, but not to pay to
do so. As for the financial matters of BF,
Joe has said he will post the numbers,
and I look forward to seeing that information.
Marc Nelson Jr.
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
|
|
| |
| |
As for your calculations on the revenue generated by registration and public
day, I think you are a little bit off. If 400 people paid 10 dollars each
that would be $4000. Since the registration was $60 per person for the three
day event, the revenue would be $24,000. Out of that many items were
purchased. The bag, the engraved bricks, the bricks to engrave, a pre-event
mailing, the raffle tickets, the sets to raffle, etc. Your $60 dollars
bought you a lot and the money goes fast when you start adding up the other
materials that were bought. From that pile of money a projector was rented
at $500 per day plus another $80 for screens for the animation festival and
the presentations. There were additional charges there. Break that down per
person and about $5.00 of each registration went for presentation equipment.
There are many more hidden costs to these events that only Christina and Joe
can chare with you. Oh, and Steve Barile too. Ask the organizers of other
conventions.
|
Joe’s number for public attendance was
3000. I thought admission
was $7, for a total of $21000, but if admission was $10, that makes $30000.
|
Ah - admission was $7 for a single day, $10 for both days. Assuming that Joe
meant 3000 paid admissions and not 3000 clicks of the turnstile, the take was
somewhere between $21000 and $30000, probably on the lower end of that (I’m
guessing most people only came for one day). Or it could be as low as $15000, if
1500 people paid $10 and were counted as attending on both days.
Marc Nelson Jr.
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In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
| |
In lugnet.events, Marc Nelson Jr. wrote:
|
Joe’s number for public attendance was
3000. I thought admission
was $7, for a total of $21000, but if admission was $10, that makes $30000.
|
Remember that the hotel got their money. Please do not misunderstand me, because
I have no idea how much they got, but the hotel did not agree to allow an
unspecified number of people to come walking in the facility without taking a
cut of the gate. I would be surprised if Joe was able to get even 10% of the
gate. Typically, the convention centers take a large portion of the Expo pass.
I worked briefly for a large non-profit in D.C. that holds an annual convention
and three regional conventions. They make millions off the annual convention.
The vendors pay the convention organizing company who takes their cut and gives
the rest to the non-profit and the non-profit signs a big fat check to the
convention center or property owner, who might be the government of the city
where the event was held. Routinely, they make about 20% on the money coming in.
Millions certainly, but 80% out the door for all the little and big hands in the
pockets.
| |
I am curious about that. Who are the owners of the Brickfest trademark and
how much are they compensated? Wasn’t BF founded by WAMALUG?
Marc Nelson Jr.
|
Unfortunately, that’s the myth that never seems to get displaced by the truth.
Four people trademarked the name and entered into an LLC. They work out the
details of these event among themselves. How and what remains their perview.
I would be happy to divulge the 4 people involved, but I feel that is their
place. Of course, LUGNET posts probably have that information stored away in the
history.
Anyway, it was their right to do so and their property. No fault or blame is
directed at them. They are four individuals that stepped up and did something
good for the community as many others have. They are entitled to preserve the
name and image that they created. All should understand that they protect the
name and will continue to do so. The rights to the name are shared at their
discretion. They will not let anyone use the BrickFest name without their
permission and stipulations. Anyone wishing to organize and event should
understand that and communicate with them their interest in doing so. Joe worked
out an arrangement with the name holders and he followed the agreement (to the
extent that I am aware of). He should be commended for doing so. The group
though determines how the name will be used and by whom and under what
circumstances.
Sincerely,
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
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Anyway, it was their right to do so and their property. No fault or blame is
directed at them. They are four individuals that stepped up and did something
good for the community as many others have. They are entitled to preserve the
name and image that they created. All should understand that they protect the
name and will continue to do so. The rights to the name are shared at their
discretion. They will not let anyone use the BrickFest name without their
permission and stipulations. Anyone wishing to organize and event should
understand that and communicate with them their interest in doing so. Joe
worked out an arrangement with the name holders and he followed the agreement
(to the extent that I am aware of). He should be commended for doing so. The
group though determines how the name will be used and by whom and under what
circumstances.
Sincerely,
Todd
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Actually, Marc in his post may have more uptodate information:
http://news.lugnet.com/events/?n=1880
Maybe the group of four has chaned.
Todd
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Todd Thuma wrote:
> From that pile of money a projector was rented at $500 per day plus another $80
> for screens for the animation festival and the presentations.
Todd, is that $500 correct??
If so, if there is money left over from this year, I HIGHLY recommend
investigating purchasing at least one projector, as they have gotten
pretty cheap these days, it might even be cheaper to buy several
compared to the rental costs over 3 days @ $500/day.
--
Tom Stangl
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* DSM Visual FAQ home
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In lugnet.events, Thomas Stangl wrote:
> Todd Thuma wrote:
> > From that pile of money a projector was rented at $500 per day plus another $80
> > for screens for the animation festival and the presentations.
>
> Todd, is that $500 correct??
>
> If so, if there is money left over from this year, I HIGHLY recommend
> investigating purchasing at least one projector, as they have gotten
> pretty cheap these days, it might even be cheaper to buy several
> compared to the rental costs over 3 days @ $500/day.
Yes, the figure is correct. I was told it to me by the AV company directly.
One thing you forget is a lot of cities, states, and facilities have unions or
contractual agreements in place that would prevent us from using our own gear.
In fact I can tell you now, almost with certainty, that there will never be a
LEGO fan convention in Houston. We would be charged by the convention center and
the union to use our own equipment. Even in the hotel convention space due to a
law on the books in Houston (at least the law I was told about in 1998). I
attended an education conference there and I could not touch anything with out a
union person. Not that I have anything againsht unions, but the contract
required that they connect the LCD Projectors to the computers. Most of them
didn't even know how to connect them. I had to talk them through it. Also, they
couldn't touch personal laptops that people were begining to bring to
conventions at that time. So, the presenter couldn't use their laptop to present
because they Union wouldn't connect the LCD, cause that required touching a
personally owned PC and the owner couldn't touch the cable from the LCD.
There are thousands of little policies and issues that come up around this stuff
that most are unaware of until you gain some experience. We are lucky that the
hotel didn't charge us for the use of the equipment we provided. It could go so
far as to charge us for the tables that the train clubs brought. Pretty stupid
and one of the main reasons the location of this Non-profit event is limited to
where it can be held.
Todd
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n lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Thomas Stangl wrote:
> > Todd Thuma wrote:
> > > From that pile of money a projector was rented at $500 per day plus another $80
> > > for screens for the animation festival and the presentations.
> >
> > Todd, is that $500 correct??
> >
> > If so, if there is money left over from this year, I HIGHLY recommend
> > investigating purchasing at least one projector, as they have gotten
> > pretty cheap these days, it might even be cheaper to buy several
> > compared to the rental costs over 3 days @ $500/day.
>
> Yes, the figure is correct. I was told it to me by the AV company directly.
>
> One thing you forget is a lot of cities, states, and facilities have unions or
> contractual agreements in place that would prevent us from using our own gear.
> In fact I can tell you now, almost with certainty, that there will never be a
> LEGO fan convention in Houston. We would be charged by the convention center and
> the union to use our own equipment. Even in the hotel convention space due to a
> law on the books in Houston (at least the law I was told about in 1998). I
> attended an education conference there and I could not touch anything with out a
> union person. Not that I have anything againsht unions, but the contract
> required that they connect the LCD Projectors to the computers. Most of them
> didn't even know how to connect them. I had to talk them through it. Also, they
> couldn't touch personal laptops that people were begining to bring to
> conventions at that time. So, the presenter couldn't use their laptop to present
> because they Union wouldn't connect the LCD, cause that required touching a
> personally owned PC and the owner couldn't touch the cable from the LCD.
>
> There are thousands of little policies and issues that come up around this stuff
> that most are unaware of until you gain some experience. We are lucky that the
> hotel didn't charge us for the use of the equipment we provided. It could go so
> far as to charge us for the tables that the train clubs brought. Pretty stupid
> and one of the main reasons the location of this Non-profit event is limited to
> where it can be held.
>
> Todd
My reply is that it just goes to show that Joe negotiated a very good contract
with the hotel. I cannot believe any other event will be able to negotiate
better prices for a four star hotel room than $89/ night including free parking,
and meeting rooms if certain number of rooms are booked. I hope Christina does
as well next year. And that whoever puts on the one in Calif.does also. Just on
the hotel bill alone, he saved me well over $60.00.
I had tried to get a room at that hotel the summer before, and the cheapest rate
was well over $250--per night.
Anyway, however it works out, I think Geoff has made the most valid point of
this whole discussion when he said:
"FOLKS, we have got to get over this. We do all these things because we love the
brick. I have plenty of friends here in my little town and we do all kinds of
fun social events around here. I don’t go to AFOL events to get more friends. I
don’t need more friends. I go because I want to get together with the AFOLs
because we share a common love for a toy and can often inspire, teach, laugh and
be happy over this common interest.
So I will tell you now, I don’t care who hosts BrickFest, where it is, or how
much it costs, I will show up as long as I do not have a family engagement and
can get time off of work. I will come to revel in other’s work. I will come to
drink a few beers after hours and swap silly stories. I will come to compete in
robotics competitions. I will come to learn more from others. and I will have a
great time. I hope, I beg and I plead for the community to start getting back
into this mentality. "
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
. . . a bunch of stuff about the hidden costs of convention center unions . .
. snipped!
Eric Sink (a software developer) wrote a great article about trade shows:
http://software.ericsink.com/bos/Trade_Shows.html
Much of what he has to say and what Todd Thuma wrote above is the same. Hotels
and convention centers will charge you for all sorts of things that should be
free, but that’s how it is.
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In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
> There is of course financial risk involved, but with proper advertising, public
> day can be the hedge. BricksWest 2003 did not pay its bills (as well I know)
> because it did not have that extra source of income. And it might have even been
> a hindrance to having it at LegoLand as why would the public want to pay to see
> more LEGO while at Legoland? They would expect it to be inclucded in the price.
> Unless of course LegoLand itself would pitch in with some major support. The
> stuff done by AFOL's and the stuff done at LegoLand are in my opinion completely
> different. In fat the more I think about it, I feel it shoudl NOT be held at
> LegoLand--but some other city. Now if you could negotiate $89/ night hotel rooms
> at 4 star hotel in San Francisco in February--sign me up now.
>
> Tommy ARmstrong
Tommy and for others,
The sad reality is that the individual incharge of BricksWest had the money
through registration, but absconded with the cash leaving those owed in the
lurch. This experience illustrated to me why all of the AFOL conventions need to
be open book affairs, where everyone is aware of where the money is going and
who is profiting or out-of-pocket.
I agree with many of your points. The reason I made this post was to seek out
this kind of comment, and it worked.
I definitely think that if a convention for Adult Fans of LEGO were held at the
park it would be different from BrickFest. For me, the attraction is the park
and the AFOLs mutually enjoying it. I think the park should help defray the
costs and make it pallatable for us to be there.
Thanks for the input. Sorry you got stiffed. I wish there was someway to get you
paid.
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
> > There is of course financial risk involved, but with proper advertising, public
> > day can be the hedge. BricksWest 2003 did not pay its bills (as well I know)
> > because it did not have that extra source of income. And it might have even been
> > a hindrance to having it at LegoLand as why would the public want to pay to see • Tommy and for others,
>
> The sad reality is that the individual incharge of BricksWest had the money
> through registration, but absconded with the cash leaving those owed in the
> lurch. This experience illustrated to me why all of the AFOL conventions need to
> be open book affairs, where everyone is aware of where the money is going and
> who is profiting or out-of-pocket.
>
> I agree with many of your points. The reason I made this post was to seek out
> this kind of comment, and it worked.
>
> I definitely think that if a convention for Adult Fans of LEGO were held at the
> park it would be different from BrickFest. For me, the attraction is the park
> and the AFOLs mutually enjoying it. I think the park should help defray the
> costs and make it pallatable for us to be there.
Either way--but it would be different. I thought the LegoLand part of BricksWest
was the weakest but many AFOL's like LL. I have been to Carlsbad and Billund
--skipped Windsor, and as for myself, I would rather spend the time in the main
hall at BrickFest. Just my opinion--the stuff you AFOL's do is to me is so much
cooler. Now if there were a convention center at LL like the LegoLand hotel in
Billund, that might be a different matter. If there are plans maybe should put
them off till then. establish it somewhere else in the area and then go there
for a year.
>
> Thanks for the input. Sorry you got stiffed. I wish there was someway to get you
> paid.
It was really my fault for delivering before payment. That is what the purpose
of COD (or a good contract) is. And anyway, the person that stiffed me did take
a chance on my idea so in long run worked out OK for me. Probably better for me
than everyone else that got "stiffed".
What I am more worried about is that this whole money thing--expectation of
complete disclosure, etc.will limit an enterprising person who wants to take on
the risks of the task.
What I would like to see would be to have say 3 or 4 granddaddy shows, like
NWBrickCon, BrickFEst, West Coast, and say PDX and maybe one in mid America. I
think the community could support that as all seem to be growing. They would be
regional but also national. Then a series of smaller local ones. This is really
what is happening from my reading--but there is a lot of experience out there
now that could be shared.
One thing I AM certain of is that there can only be one Captain Piccard, one
person that is ultimately in charge of the enterprise. Just as there can be only
one head coach and one quarterback.
So Todd I look forward to seeing you in Southern California????
Tommy
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In lugnet.events, Tommy Armstrong wrote:
Snip
> So Todd I look forward to seeing you in Southern California????
>
> Tommy
I think so, but probably not at Legoland under a fan convention. In reading the
posts, I think I have been swayed into a different line of thinking. I like the
idea of a convention north or south of Carlsbad at a hotel with a great big
gathering. Then before or after the event a sub group of us go to visit the
park. Of course, that's my other love, amusement parks and I could spend all day
there by myself riding the Technic Coaster. Of course, I would probably be
arrested for going alone.
Anyway, there has been a lot discussed in this topic and I am mulling over a
great many things. I might even be disagreeing with myself on a few points.
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> Would you be interested in attending
> a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
Yes. I have never been and would love to do an outing to the park in conjunction
with a con.
That said, I suggest it be done as an optional "add-on" preferably the day
BEFORE the main con starts. ie: Con runs Friday-Sunday with bus excursion to
LEGOland all day Thursday.
This would allow a full convention experience for everyone with the added chance
to go to LEGOland for those who wish. It would also add a day of informal
pre-con for those who would like.
> Now, your input here is essential. What time of the year
> would you prefer to have it?
I would suggest a late-spring/early-summer con to keep it away from established
cons and take advantage of nicer weather without the crowds of kids. It would
require some coordination with weather patterns and the park opening days.
> What type of convention would you want?
A fun one!
I also applaud the idea of a self-contained con with a hotel/meeting facility
combination as mentioned by Tommy.
> Does it need to carry a
> recognizeable brand name such as BrickFest or such?
While there might be advantages to using an existing name if the con is meant to
become a regular occurrance it should have it's own identity.
> How many days would you want it?
Thursday: LEGOland Excursion
Friday & Saturday: Convention Activities
Sunday: Wrap-up (possible second optional LEGOland excursion)
> What types of perks from the park would you like to see?
Besides group rates some sort of behind-the scenes tour of the workshops would
be minimum. A lunch that includes a short talk or presentation by a LEGO exec or
professional would be a real bonus.
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In lugnet.events, Ted Godwin wrote:
> In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
>
> Yes. I have never been and would love to do an outing to the park in conjunction
> with a con.
>
> That said, I suggest it be done as an optional "add-on" preferably the day
> BEFORE the main con starts. ie: Con runs Friday-Sunday with bus excursion to
> LEGOland all day Thursday.
>
> This would allow a full convention experience for everyone with the added chance
> to go to LEGOland for those who wish. It would also add a day of informal
> pre-con for those who would like.
>
>
> I would suggest a late-spring/early-summer con to keep it away from established
> cons and take advantage of nicer weather without the crowds of kids. It would
> require some coordination with weather patterns and the park opening days.
>
>
>
> I also applaud the idea of a self-contained con with a hotel/meeting facility
> combination as mentioned by Tommy.
>
>
> Thursday: LEGOland Excursion
>
> Friday & Saturday: Convention Activities
>
> Sunday: Wrap-up (possible second optional LEGOland excursion)
>
>
>
> Besides group rates some sort of behind-the scenes tour of the workshops would
> be minimum. A lunch that includes a short talk or presentation by a LEGO exec or
> professional would be a real bonus.
Ted,
All great ideas.
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> To All,
>
> I put this question to the whole community. Would you be interested in attending
> a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
Todd,
I really appreciate all the work that you and Joe did for BrickFest this year.
It was really great.
I would like to chime in on a few ideas for a west coast "BrickFest".
1- Definately February.
2- Definately Southern California (San Diego or Anaheim). That is the easiest
for many states to drive to, along I-15.
3- The Hotel/Convention center together was a winner. Plus, LLCA really is not
for adults. I did not like it, plus, when I went last October, the park was in
such disrepair that I felt is was sacrilege and couldn't wait to leave.
4- For someone from Utah, it is virtually impossible to get a lot of MOCs to DC.
But if the convention was in SC, I could drive my entire family for less than my
wife and I flew to DC.
5- I would be willing to help/volunteer.
Let's do it.
Brian Pilati
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In lugnet.events, Brian Pilati wrote:
>
> Todd,
>
> I really appreciate all the work that you and Joe did for BrickFest this year.
> It was really great.
I didn't do much. I was really only active on scene and I tried not to screw
things up but I had my moments.
>
> I would like to chime in on a few ideas for a west coast "BrickFest".
>
> 1- Definately February.
> 2- Definately Southern California (San Diego or Anaheim). That is the easiest
> for many states to drive to, along I-15.
> 3- The Hotel/Convention center together was a winner. Plus, LLCA really is not
> for adults. I did not like it, plus, when I went last October, the park was in
> such disrepair that I felt is was sacrilege and couldn't wait to leave.
> 4- For someone from Utah, it is virtually impossible to get a lot of MOCs to DC.
> But if the convention was in SC, I could drive my entire family for less than my
> wife and I flew to DC.
> 5- I would be willing to help/volunteer.
>
> Let's do it.
>
> Brian Pilati
Well, lets talk and work with others. There some events coming up that were
recently announced. There are more ideas coming in. Once we get a core group
together we could proceed along some early planning. If we want the park
involved we will need to work with them and push them pretty hard.
Todd
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In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> Well, lets talk and work with others. There some events coming up that were
> recently announced. There are more ideas coming in. Once we get a core group
> together we could proceed along some early planning. If we want the park
> involved we will need to work with them and push them pretty hard.
Todd, your email is bouncing. It looks like I am considered spam. :)
My LUGNET reply probably got buried. I was on the Organizing Committee for
BricksWest, and I would like to help you out with this.
--
Russell Clark
President/Co-Founder, BayLTC/BayLUG
http://www.baylug.org/russellc/
Fire Chief, PCFD
There is a very fine line between
"hobby" and "mental illness".
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Todd,
I imagine that enough time has passed that the ghosts of Brickswest past have
been exercised. I have worried for some time now that the negative way that BW
ended has clouded how cool of an event this actually was. People flew in from
all over, one of the perks being the opportunity to visit LLC, that is a huge
draw.
Personally I am still a bit soured on the whole BrickFest name, but that is due
to really old ugliness that need not be rehashed. However, if that name is
permitted and preferred, then I would have no real objections.
Another convention out here need not be too ambitious. Simple pannels, and tons
of display space should suffice.
As always, I am willing to help where ever I can.
Scott
In lugnet.events, Todd Thuma wrote:
> To All,
>
> I put this question to the whole community. Would you be interested in attending
> a LEGO Fan convention held at the Legoland Park in California?
>
> Now, your input here is essential. What time of the year would you prefer to
> have it? What type of convention would you want? Does it need to carry a
> recognizeable brand name such as BrickFest or such? How many days would you want
> it? What types of perks from the park would you like to see?
>
> Use this post as a place to exchange ideas. For those on the west coast unable
> to make it north to NorthWest BrickCon or east to BrickFest, what would you like
> a southern California convention to be.
>
> The reason I am asking? I do not know, really. Would I offer to organize some
> aspect of it or lead it? Would I attend it if it came about? I guess essentially
> I would like to attend the Legoland park yet again and enjoy the new rides I
> have not experienced since the last BricksWest was held there, and I would like
> to attend with a couple hundred other friends.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Todd
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I think that Geoff has really got something there. Please allow me to take a
stab at it.
In my life it always seems to boil down to relationships, which inevitably means
interpersonal communications. And that seems to always boil down to treating
people the same way you expect or maybe feel that you deserve or even long for.
So if you really want to others to listen to you then first listen to them. If
you desire others to take the time it is often necessary to appreciate your MOC
then do the same for them. If you long for others to respect and support you in
your efforts then you must respect and support them.
I am often reminded that the best leaders are those that lead out of servitude.
Of course having a strong sense of direction and charisma are necessary but when
you spend your efforts as a leder in helping those that have chosen to follow
you you’re certain to have an immense strength in your team and an empowered
staff where they find they are operating at levels they didn’t know they could
achieve.
There is one other curious effect this community has and that it the
teleportation back to childhood. One universal theme that seems to come up is
how LEGO has the power to transport us back to a time where life was simpler and
less stressful. A time where we had a sense of unconditional love from our
family. A time where our creations (and as an extension us) where praised. Which
as an AFOL if not carefully monitored could backfire. Where sometimes
expectations of the this fragile online community can over burden it, weigh it
down and under that weight even crush that in which we care about and draw so
much from.
I have had the tremendous support of my local club the GPLR, and the PNLTC and
my extended online “long distance” friends. Where after nearly 10 years in this
hobby these guys have become some of my closet and dearest 3:00AM friends that I
have (and this was just tested when Kelly brought me to the airport at nearly
3:00AM just a few days ago!!!). Not because we all love to play with LEGO but
the relationships that have formed over the years are real, mature, and built on
mutual respect and a genuine genderless brotherhood.
I find it hard often to take the time to genuinely be interested in my family
and friend’s lives. But through the grace of those that I cherish the most I
still have relationships that I get to work hard at.
Play well..
SteveB
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