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Subject: 
Re: Tanks or Power Armor
Newsgroups: 
lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space
Date: 
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:38:29 GMT
Viewed: 
197 times
  
In lugnet.off-topic.geek, Niels Bugge wrote:
   I’m supprised about this too, but from a little different standingpoint: I don’t think humans have any future on the battlefield, because everything will happen so much faster than today:

Humans will always have a place on the battlefield, if for only two reasons. Aircraft have proven capable of instigating conflict and presenting a solid first wave of defense, but the only way to hold territory is to maintain pressence there. That means people on the ground. The other reason is that the speed at which combat is fought is always limited by the ability to react to changing circumstances. Machines currently need preprogrammed reaction logic, so they can’t reliably react to unexpected events in the way that well-trained soldiers can. The only way to make them capable of doing so is to develop true AI, and Asimov’s literary history shows that this might not be a safe thing even in terms of civilian bots, much less bots with guns strapped on them.

   Why should you use something as demanding and confused as a human, when inserting intelligence in military units? AI are much better: It doesn’t demand space, lifesupport or rest, is way faster and smaller, and do what it’s told to without moral considerations...

Think about this. You’ve got to develop a military AI that has no objections to killing, but won’t go on a killing spree when it gets home. You’ve got to give them enough deduction capability to figure out who to shoot and who to not shoot, but expect them to not turn around and go Swiss on you. And you’ve got to develop their reactionary capabilities beyond those possessed by humans, who still don’t really understand how the brain works.

   Rockets are fine and is here to stay, but drones are the future. Still, you need humans for humane stuff like peacekeeping and heart & mind missions, but they’ll need heavy space, air and drone-support.

Drones with off-site human control are already here, but I wouldn’t want to bank on the idea of drones that require no human input once you send them on the mission.

   What about tanks and powerarmor then? Well the infantry’s gotta get around relatively protected in hover-APC’s, and they may need some light hovertanks for support, but unless some serious cloaking technology becomes availible that can protect them against rockets, the main offensive weapons will stay airborne or spacebased (orbital bombardment).

I have a feeling that orbital bombardment will have a very short period of use before it becomes illegal by international treaty.

   Tecnically there’s a maximum limit of how fast wheeled or tracked vehicles can move - they just barely managed to reach mach 1 recently in one of the flattest areas in the world: I wouldn’t like to drive a MBT through rugged terrain at that speed (or higher)!

Speed is also constrained by the driver’s ability to not smack into buildings, trees, and the occassional cow. Fighter jets have the advantage that there’s not much in the way of obstacles once you get a few thousand feet into the air, but SW:ROTJ should show you how treacherous it is to exceed safe travel speeds during combat on unfamiliar terrain.

   When you add oceans and mountain to the equation

Mountains? That’s what aircraft are for. Tanks, hover or not, have no business trying to hop over the Himalayas.

   as well as the need to avoid enemy smartbombs by moving around or dodging,

Dodging is probably never going to be a real option. Fighter jets don’t dodge missiles, but rather out-manouver them, or misdirect them. Hover tanks will likely end up in the same scrap pile as mundane tanks when jets scream over at Mach 2+ and unleash cluster smart-bombs like they were doing in Iraq.

   I think that that pretty much sums up why tanks need to hover (and with beamweapons or rockets, recoil wouldn’t be a problem).

Rockets are more bulky compared to the depleted uranium darts that we (the US) currently use. In order to equal the destructive capabilities, they’d need to be huge, so you’d have a very limited ammo capacity. Depleted uranium rounds will punch through pretty much any armor plating out there (including that which is used for the Abrams), but they’re probably not much bigger than the RPGs that weren’t even much of a threat to our Humvees, and were just bouncing off our Abrams tanks. And without currently existing beamweapon capability to back up the hover tank argument, there’s no way of guaranteeing that the two technologies would become available at the same time.



Message has 1 Reply:
  Re: Tanks or Power Armor
 
(...) With a particular hostile environment like a planet uninhabitable by humans, infested with nanorobots designed to gnaw off skinn or armour (or other ABCN-weapons), or swarms of assasinationdrones, in urban theaters, think Mogadisho. I don't (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)

Message is in Reply To:
  Re: Tanks or Power Armor
 
I'm supprised about this too, but from a little different standingpoint: I don't think humans have any future on the battlefield, because everything will happen so much faster than today: Why should you use something as demanding and confused as a (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)

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