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Subject: 
Re: Tanks or Power Armor
Newsgroups: 
lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space
Date: 
Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:19:19 GMT
Viewed: 
2876 times
  
In lugnet.off-topic.geek, David Laswell wrote:
   Humans will always have a place on the battlefield, if for only two reasons. Aircraft have proven capable of instigating conflict and presenting a solid first wave of defense, but the only way to hold territory is to maintain pressence there.

With a particular hostile environment like a planet uninhabitable by humans, infested with nanorobots designed to gnaw off skinn or armour (or other ABCN-weapons), or swarms of assasinationdrones, in urban theaters, think Mogadisho. I don’t think humans will be very usefull, unless heavily protected and supported by both (and as it seems like we agree that PA’s not an option, many times infanty won’t be either).

There’s a lot of nasty ways you can control a planet (unless you just want eliminate it as a threat), you don’t even have to invade (if you bring a stick that’s big enough):
Like making some good diplomatic deals, demanding a huge tribute or favorable taxation or trading deals, and move on to the next planet.

   That means people on the ground. The other reason is that the speed at which combat is fought is always limited by the ability to react to changing circumstances. Machines currently need preprogrammed reaction logic, so they can’t reliably react to unexpected events in the way that well-trained soldiers can.

Regarding the possibility of creating AI, the jury is still out on that one (and SF MOC’s is much more interesting with people in), but do I believe that by the time the “glorious SF-era” has manifested itself, the computers and storage will be advanced enough to hold a sufficiently advanced target systems (just learn them how friendly and neutrals look like and make them attack everything else).

   The only way to make them capable of doing so is to develop true AI, and Asimov’s literary history shows that this might not be a safe thing even in terms of civilian bots, much less bots with guns strapped on them.

   Why should you use something as demanding and confused as a human, when inserting intelligence in military units? AI are much better: It doesn’t demand space, lifesupport or rest, is way faster and smaller, and do what it’s told to without moral considerations...

Think about this. You’ve got to develop a military AI that has no objections to killing, but won’t go on a killing spree when it gets home. You’ve got to give them enough deduction capability to figure out who to shoot and who to not shoot, but expect them to not turn around and go Swiss on you. And you’ve got to develop their reactionary capabilities beyond those possessed by humans, who still don’t really understand how the brain works.

Accidents will happen, they always do, but unlike GMO’s it’ll a lot easier to turn them off and put them back inside Pandora’s box, and GMO’s is spread carelessly in the environment already: Hopefully we become more wise in the future (when we see how bad it can go), but what if you faced alien invasion and possible extermination?

  
   Rockets are fine and is here to stay, but drones are the future. Still, you need humans for humane stuff like peacekeeping and heart & mind missions, but they’ll need heavy space, air and drone-support.

Drones with off-site human control are already here, but I wouldn’t want to bank on the idea of drones that require no human input once you send them on the mission.

   What about tanks and powerarmor then? Well the infantry’s gotta get around relatively protected in hover-APC’s, and they may need some light hovertanks for support, but unless some serious cloaking technology becomes availible that can protect them against rockets, the main offensive weapons will stay airborne or spacebased (orbital bombardment).

I have a feeling that orbital bombardment will have a very short period of use before it becomes illegal by international treaty.

You mean like the banning of mines? You don’t have to care about “International treaties” unless you have signed it, invading aliens probably haven’t, and a lot of code of conduct is based on culture, like not “living off the land” by eating your opponents and the like.

And orbital bombardment doesn’t have to cause that much collateral damage (unless the groundforces hides under civillian areas which is banned too, tell that to guerillas and the ones that desperatly fights for survival).

  
   Tecnically there’s a maximum limit of how fast wheeled or tracked vehicles can move - they just barely managed to reach mach 1 recently in one of the flattest areas in the world: I wouldn’t like to drive a MBT through rugged terrain at that speed (or higher)!

Speed is also constrained by the driver’s ability to not smack into buildings, trees, and the occassional cow. Fighter jets have the advantage that there’s not much in the way of obstacles once you get a few thousand feet into the air, but SW:ROTJ should show you how treacherous it is to exceed safe travel speeds during combat on unfamiliar terrain.
   When you add oceans and mountain to the equation

Mountains? That’s what aircraft are for. Tanks, hover or not, have no business trying to hop over the Himalayas.

A good forward repulsor “bumper” should repel the craft from most obstacles (see the snowspeeders in SW ESB :-p), but sensorsystems and anticollision will probably be a lot more advanced in the future, and if you really need it, there shouldnt be any problems in climbing to safer altitudes with zero-g or repulsorlift technology.

  
   as well as the need to avoid enemy smartbombs by moving around or dodging,

Dodging is probably never going to be a real option. Fighter jets don’t dodge missiles, but rather out-manouver them, or misdirect them. Hover tanks will likely end up in the same scrap pile as mundane tanks when jets scream over at Mach 2+ and unleash cluster smart-bombs like they were doing in Iraq.

   I think that that pretty much sums up why tanks need to hover (and with beamweapons or rockets, recoil wouldn’t be a problem).

Rockets are more bulky compared to the depleted uranium darts that we (the US) currently use. In order to equal the destructive capabilities, they’d need to be huge, so you’d have a very limited ammo capacity. Depleted uranium rounds will punch through pretty much any armor plating out there (including that which is used for the Abrams), but they’re probably not much bigger than the RPGs that weren’t even much of a threat to our Humvees, and were just bouncing off our Abrams tanks. And without currently existing beamweapon capability to back up the hover tank argument, there’s no way of guaranteeing that the two technologies would become available at the same time.

The dodging were actually a joke, but no armour can survive that kind of attack (or space bombardment) so speed (in the mach’s), and not being where the enemy expects is the key to surviving.

  
   I think that that pretty much sums up why tanks need to hover

:-P

-NB



Message is in Reply To:
  Re: Tanks or Power Armor
 
(...) Humans will always have a place on the battlefield, if for only two reasons. Aircraft have proven capable of instigating conflict and presenting a solid first wave of defense, but the only way to hold territory is to maintain pressence there. (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)

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