Subject:
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Re: First Lego League Software (fwd)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.robotics
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Date:
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Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:54:26 GMT
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Original-From:
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Jim Choate <ravage@einstein^SayNoToSpam^.ssz.com>
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Viewed:
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772 times
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----- Forwarded message from Barbara Nostrand -----
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:19:48 -0600
From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@bradley.edu>
Subject: Re: First Lego League Software (fwd)
If you are seriously considering using other processors, then this unit
is far from being the only possibility.
[ Duh, what was your first clue? The reason that I suggest these folks is
the machines are full featured (i.e. incl. video, serial, EIDE, RAM,
etc.) for a very reasonable price. At one time last year they sold me
a single unit 486DX40 unit for under $300. Linux was slapped on it and
the Sun Linux parallel drivers were installed and it was up and running.
Total time from delivery to an operating environment was about a week
and the machine was sitting on the ethernet with an IP, had X-windows,
and the parallel port was configured as a geek-port. Pretty damn
impressive when one considers the price is only 50% over a RCX and about
the same as a BASIC Stamp or a 68HC11 dev kit (if not lower cost). ]
> Though, if one is using MSW Logo with it's current ser/par I/O capabilities
> it makes the RCX a tad pointless. Instead of the RCX get a embedded ix86
> system from EMJ Embedded Systems [1] or other PCMCIA PC vendors.
[ Nobody said it was the only choice. I personly use a NMI 8031 for my Lego.
But if you're a beginner then one is probably going to be swammped learning
hardware construction, electronics assembly, programming skills, etc. In
addition these devices are complete ix86 machines that will run Windows or
Linux so you can use them for other things as well. Try surfing the web or
writting the dox for your robot on the RCX. ]
1) The Stamp microprocessors directly support programming in BASIC.
Stamps are widely used in the Sumo Robot community.
[ And over-priced and under-resourced. The NMI 8031 kit for $39 supports
Tiny C, Forth, and Assembly out of the box. Solder a $3 power connector,
connect the serial cable (you can build or buy it since it uses a 8-pin
IDE style connector) and give it 1.5A of 5V DC and you're up and running.
In addition there is a whole host of plug-on expansion boards that are
industry standard. ]
2) The 68HC11 series processors (usually in their Handyboard configuration
but others are also available) is widely used by university robot
builders.
[ They're ok if you already know what you're doing and don't mind paying
out the wazooh for reasonable development software and the high price.
In addition, if you're talking robots versus controlling an elevator
then you should consider a 683xx kit instead of these toy 8-bit
machines. The problem there is price. ]
The BIG advantage of the RCX is the way that it is self-contained and
is set up to connect directly with the Technic components without having
to hack things. After watching a pair of reasonably bright university
level c.s. students slave away at trying to assemble a HC11 board and
make a rug-rat robot (there are several vendors for the rugrat) work,
trying to hack searvos, &c., I am much more inclined to trying out the
very self contained LEGO system.
[ I've been building robots since 1970, worked in a science museum for
7 years sponsoring their robot and electronics group for 12 and up,
sponsored The Robot Group when it first started, was an origonal
participant in Robot Wars (I helped design the origonal rules), was a
participant with the Toronoto PC VR SIG, participated in the NASA Diasar
Lunar Rover Project, one SRL show, 5 of the 7 RoboFests, and have helped
build in the neighborhood of 30 custom non-Lego robots. I see one
over-riding factor for beginners, the teachers who support them generaly
don't know much more than the students and the projects are overly ambitious.
Further, CS students don't have the hardware or mechanics background that is
required, they've got a pretty steep learning curve to climb. I've never
understood why college professors (who should know better) think you can
learn to do hardware in a couple of afternoons. The problem with Lego (and
I've been a user of Lego Technics since '86 for robots) is that it is limited
for doing 'real world' robotics, the Lego's simply won't take physical abuse
nor will they support realistic payloads. A simple test is take your Lego
robot and turn it loose in the middle of the street and see how long it
takes before parts start falling off. ]
(If I were integrating LEGO robots in a Digital Systems course or a
Computer Organization course, then I would probably use one of the
HC11 boards and try hacking the LEGO electric strips.)
[ If they knew nothing about robots, hardware, software, or programing
then I'd pick something a lot more supportive of absolute beginners. A
more ideal system would be a small laptop with a umbilical or else a
more powerful PCMCIA style computer so they could work in a very high
level environment and not get bogged. Idealy the first thing a new
robot builder should do is spend six months learning electronics and
another six months learning mechanics. Then spend six months learning
programming. I'd also 'payload' or 'modularize' the project. Things
like motor, battery, or sensor assemblies would be pre-assembled. Only
then would I turn them loose on anything more complicated than a
bounce-and-twirl robot. At no point should they touch a soldering iron. ]
----- End of forwarded message from Barbara Nostrand -----
Merry Christmas.
____________________________________________________________________
The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full
of passionate intensity.
W.B. Yeats
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: First Lego League Software (fwd)
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| (...) An advatage of Mindstorms is that it requires zero months of learning electronics, and that the mechanics are something that many people (children and adults!) are already very familiar with. One can make a bounce-and-twirl robot within a few (...) (25 years ago, 23-Dec-99, to lugnet.robotics)
| | | Re: First Lego League Software (fwd)
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| Hi again. (...) 1) As I wrote, the LEGO system provideds a big advantage in having all of the parts set up so that they can be plugged together relatively painlessly. (This means no hacking the servos and no hacking IR sensors both of which are (...) (25 years ago, 23-Dec-99, to lugnet.robotics)
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