 | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I think tanks will still remain useful as siege weapons, spearheading assaults, and general heavy battle. Power armor might be very useful for surgical strikes, and urban warfare. But in an open field, or over long distance, I think tanks will (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space)
| | | | | Tanks or Power Armor
|
| Hello everyone. I was checking out (URL) Ryan Wood's Jade Empire Hong Hovertank post> and he mentions that we have seen little in ground combat vehicles other than (URL) power suit>. That got me thinking, when you have Power Suits available, should (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I think so. Since a tank (I'm talking about real life MBTs, not hovertanks) is firmly situated on the ground, it is a more stable firing platform. Also, even if powersuits are eventually developed, I doubt that they will be able to carry the (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Those are all powerful advantages but I think that tanks are more efficient at providing an armored and enclosed area because they're closer to a spherical shape than a power suit, and because they get mass fraction advantages. Anecdotally: (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Another thought is maintainability and cost. Consider that WWII Germany was able to produce several tank destroyers for the cost of a single tank, simply because the expense of the turret went away. As the end of WWII approached and money (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) In the storyline I've been "working up" for twenty years now (!!), in fact, I do use both. Part of the reason is that I tend to think that bipedal combat machines would have to develop very high levels of flexibility and survivability before (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) That entirely depends on what technology you want to speculate on. Power armor would require an incredibly powerful and small power source. I suppose that is a given if you are saying that power armor would exist. The problem with power armor (...) (20 years ago, 24-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I used to think that bipedal war machines had absolutely no advantages over their tank-al equivalents beyond "wow" factor (and face it, getting your enemy to say, "wow, that's cool that they can do that," just before he blows you to kingdom (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I don't know jack about real-world tank design and specifications, and haven't given much thought to potential powersuit concepts, but this has been a very cool discussion to read all day. I certainly see a place for tanks in the future, as (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| Very interesting discussion everyone. In my opinion, MBT's will always have the advantage over powersuits in terms of cross country mobility, firepower and protection. There are a few situations where a single man powersuit would have significant (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Since power suits are near future sci-fi and we are talking about tanks everyone should check out Keith Laumer's Bolo series. It concerns a really cool (and scary in many dimensions) future military developement idea: Bolo's Giant tanks run by (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) That's not that different than today's tanks shooting while on the move - the recoil is taken into effect, but it's not nearly as powerful as the drive. Also, don't forget that the mass of a round is minute compared to the mass of the tank. (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space)
| | | | | (canceled)
|
| | | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I agree! (...) Either that or they’d use recoilless weapons (venting exhaust gasses from projectile weapons, or energy weapons of some sort, or whatever) However I think there’s still the billiard ball effect. When struck with a projectile, (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| Great discussions and some good physics mentioned on these posts! As far as AI is concerned in the military, we get scarilly closer to this all the time. Read articles on Unmanned Arial Vehicles (UAVs) like those that Boeing is building, among other (...) (20 years ago, 25-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) This is an interesting discussion that I've seen before in other places, but never commented on before, so I figured I'd add my own $.02. Most of the time, it seems that the comparison is made between future power armor systems and current (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I know that police are already using various types of UGVs on the basis that it's a lot more pleasent to attempt to justify to the public why they should be willing to shell out the bucks for a really expensive glorified RC car to replace the (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| To offer a different POV, I believe that power armor should be used in space as an asset to ship-to-ship combat operations as commandos or raiders It could also be used in a repair role where dexterity is needed but the area is too dangerous for a (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I'd have to agree, at least based on what I've experienced playing BattleTech. A friend of mine always used to use tanks to go up against Mechs and Elementals (I think that's what the power-armor was called in BattleTech. It's been a few (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I'd think it would have been more funny catching his reaction when he switched from smug dismissal of the unarmed opponents to realizing just how deep he'd stepped into it. It sounds about on par with the British forces who lost a fortified (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Navigation in space is hair-raising enough as it is. I shudder to think of how much more complicated this would become if you start needing to account for body stance when using thrusters. I could maybe see the idea of using humanoid (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I was thinking these would be more for clambering around and inside capital ships, not so much for zero-g combat as you imply. The suits would reach their targets in projectile pods (ala Heinlein) or use "point-n-shoot" thrusters attached (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) When I think of what happens when a hover tank fires, i remember a little scene from star wars a phantom menace, the entire tank kinda glides back from kickback and the barrel has telesoping action to help in the kick back (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I guess I could see that. I'm not sure a true humanoid shape would be the optimal way to go, given how tall it'd have to be to accomodate a human pilot, but a walker of some sort could have the advantage of being able to claw its way around, (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Of course you are correct. Plausible or not though, they are much more fun to build out of lego. I've never felt the need for realism to dictate any limitations on my models, but that's just the .SPACE in me :) (...) If realism, or even (...) (20 years ago, 26-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Fair enough, but we do all make certain levels of "realism" necessary in our creations, be they space suits for all little spacemen, enclosed cockpits, engines, or even making sure there are wings on our Galaxy Enforcers. :D (...) Well, fair (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) That's more or less what I was saying. Any creation, no matter how implausible or unrealistic, must have a certain internal consistency as it were. There will be rules that apply to that creation to make it 'real' enough, whatever that may (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| I'm surprised no one so far has answered the "tanks or power armor" question by saying, "missiles!" As information, positioning, sensor, and guidance technology continues to improve, it gets easier and easier to hit a ground-based target from long (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| While the cost of precision guided munitions is indeed going down (wittness the the USN's new "Tactical Tomahawk" with a price tag of around $575,000, about half the cost of current Toms) using cost efficiency to justify the use of PGM as a tank (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| I'm supprised about this too, but from a little different standingpoint: I don't think humans have any future on the battlefield, because everything will happen so much faster than today: Why should you use something as demanding and confused as a (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I agree with this part... (...) I am assuming that a tank would not go from its rear area yard/base (on another continent) to the combat zone under its own power, even a hovertank. So I guess I don't see why tanks need to hover. As someone (...) (20 years ago, 27-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I think this would depend on the efficacy of the hover mechanism. Depending on the technology involved, it could be faster then a tank with treads running on the same sort of power source would be (there's alot of mass in tank treads, and (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Humans will always have a place on the battlefield, if for only two reasons. Aircraft have proven capable of instigating conflict and presenting a solid first wave of defense, but the only way to hold territory is to maintain pressence there. (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) If military history has shown us anything, it's that nothing is immune to landmines if it moves. It's just a matter of developing a landmine that's capable of being triggered by a hover tank (and trust me, if hover tanks happen, someone will (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) They do. It's called AAAV-7. Done with a AFV already. Not Hover, but SES on the water, tracks on land. (...) I'd suggest reading "Hammers Slammers" by David Drake. He's ex armor, has lots of neat ideas and cool fighting scenes. Imagine hover (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) A mecha would have a very hard time getting close enough to make hand-to-hand relevant. A M1A1's turret can do a 360 and stop on a dime from a dead start in 1 second. It's not the most comfortable thing to do for the crew inside but it does (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| I believe that tanks will stay in service, but will eventually face competition from PA. Many people have justified that the size of MECHA will keep tanks in service, bypassing the issue that even the modern PA is still roughly human sized. While a (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) None of these statements about Power Armor can be considered factual as none are in existance, nor are they being used by ANY military for tests or used in actual combat. You'd be amazed at how powerful REAL LIFE weapons can be. Ever thought (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Well, the driver ought to be fine...assuming the turret crew doesn't collectively puke all over him, that is... (hmm, imagine them spinning around like that at full speed with the governor removed) But yeah, if a mecha/PA tries advancing on an (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Okay, now you're just fantasizing. A human-sized PA would probably weigh at least half a ton, so it'd need a huge boost to get off the ground. To get enough boost for airlift that doesn't look sluggish, you're probably looking at having to (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| Dude, one ton? I'm not even considdering using enough armor to withstand an artillery or missle barrage. That's way to inconcieveable. That kind of PA wouldn't be woth the trouble. Lightweight, durable materials like carbon fiber, magnesium alloys, (...) (20 years ago, 28-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Half of that. 1000 pounds. Think "compact car", or 1/10th of a Hummer, if you prefer. Consider the various systems that would have to be strapped onto the pilot. You start out with a frame designed to fit around a human body. You'd need (...) (20 years ago, 29-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) We're working on it: (URL) Project> The current powered exos in the lab weigh about 100 lb apiece and can carry a payload of over 70 lbs, but mobility is still rather limited. --Bram (20 years ago, 29-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I think I saw that briefly on Scientific American Frontiers a while back. Still, even if you were wearing full combat body armor with that strapped on top, all it would take was one shot to the battery to render it useless (and if they're able (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Yup and that's the difference of perspective, I talked about: You can't expect to have that kind of airsuperiority as it is now (unless you're an American), and if we're talking about aliens, well, space superiorty pretty much eats (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) With a particular hostile environment like a planet uninhabitable by humans, infested with nanorobots designed to gnaw off skinn or armour (or other ABCN-weapons), or swarms of assasinationdrones, in urban theaters, think Mogadisho. I don't (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) I agree on the fact that, no groundforces are immune to mines, but regarding treaties, they only survive as long as politicians back them up and with regarding the mines, sorry, the bad guys still have them and won’t sign any treaty so they're (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) Well, the nations that are most likely to be able to develop hover tanks are also the nations that are most likely to be able to develop anti-HT mines. Generally, they're also the same countries that will sign arms reduction treaties. Granted, (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) A shot to the head will do pretty much the same thing ;-) But seriously, it still need some powersource and a lot of logistics, I read somewhere that in Operation Iraqi Liberation, one of the problems were the to acquire enough batteries for (...) (20 years ago, 30-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| | | | | Re: Tanks or Power Armor
|
| (...) As far as "the dozen or so most powerful militaries" today, it is them that have all (or most of) the ABC-weapons and mines, and the only treaties I'm awere of has been ones designed to prevent others from getting them, or scrapping outdated (...) (20 years ago, 7-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.build.mecha, lugnet.space, FTX)
| |
