Subject:
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Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:47:17 GMT
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Viewed:
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1237 times
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James Brown wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> >
> > > Exactly. Scientists have faith in THEIR senses. BUT, the odd thing is that
> > > although we know it's a no-no, we still DO have faith in other people's
> > > senses. Have you done ALL the research necessary for modern science, because
> > > you didn't believe it when it was presented to you? No, but you take it on
> > > faith, with the exception, however, that you are not as adamant about that
> > > which you take on faith as that which you do not. If you were a
> > > paleontologist (sp?) you'd be a lot more certain of evolution than you would
> > > be of, say, nuclear fission. This is also based off of other things that
> > > have been touched on in the other sub-thread as well, like society defining
> > > the strengths of your particular faiths via confirmation...
> >
> > But do you really experience life in this fashion? Either doubting
> > everything that you haven't perceived personally, or equating the acceptance
> > of another's testimony with the kind of Faith necessary to believe in a
> > supreme being?
>
> I think they're more-or-less the same. It doesn't matter if you can verify
> something through the scientific method if you don't actually verify it.
> You are assuming that it is so - in other words, taking it on faith.
>
> Hundreds of thousands of people have no knowledge of UFO's outside of
> testimonials, but they believe in the existance of UFO's.
This is taken on Faith. I believe in extra-terrestrial life. Believing that we are
on the only life-bearing planet in the entire universe is pretty arrogant, I think.
> Hundreds of thousands of people have no knowledge of Brazil outside of
> testimonials, but they believe in the existance of Brazil.
Ah, but this is NOT taken on Faith - this can be easily proved - simply buy a plane
ticket and watch the ground go by during the flight ;-)
> > The flaw in your chain of reasoning is that, since there is
> > no way for me to verify your (or Bruce's, or Steve's) metaphysical
> > experiment--no way, in short, to reproduce it to the satisfaction of my own
> > senses--I would have to accept your testimony, if I choose to accept it, on
> > Faith alone. If Bruce claims that he's come up with revolutionary way of
> > transmuting ice to water (to pose a hypothetical scientific "breakthrough"
> > into uncharted teritory), I don't have to accept it on faith alone, since I
> > can reproduce his hi-tech experiment given the proper tools. This is true
> > whether the experiment is in quantum mechanics or auto mechanics. The event
> > itself doesn't preclude my understanding and reproduction of it. If it
> > cannot be reproduced, then science cannot accept it; there is no faith
> > involved whatsoever, especially, as Bruce pointed out, since one
> > individual's perceptions are not the sole proving/disproving factor in such
> > an experiment. A metaphysical experience such as you've elsewhere described
> > is an inherently personal and non-reproducible (by others) event, so I can
> > only accept it if:
>
> That is an assumption. It may merely be that you are lacking the tools to
> reproduce it. A blind person is unable to experience emperical evidence of
> the visible spectrum of light. You can't catagorically say "your experiment
> is unreproducable"; the most you can say is "I can't reproduce your experiment."
>
> I will grant, before it comes back to haunt me, that vast bodies of
> consistent testimony are arguably more valid than individual varying
> testimonial, making it less of a leap of faith to assume that Brazil exists,
> but it is still an act of faith, and an assumption.
>
> > a) I have Faith that such a thing is possible
> > b) I have Faith in your testimony of your own experience
>
> Why, out of curiosity, does Brazil pass this test, and God fail it? At a
> fundamental, and conceptual level, there is no difference, unless you go and
> perform the experiment (visit Brazil) yourself.
You can visit Brazil (I have a co-worker living there right now, so I trust it
exists). And I've seen plenty of pictures.
You can't visit God physically. And I have YET to see a picture of him.
--
| Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp
| Please do not associate my personal views with my employer
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Message has 4 Replies:
 | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| I forgot a sentence in here... (...) However, I don't believe in UFOs in the classic sense. I don't think a species advanced enough to have intersystem travel would even waste their time with us, unless it was a paleontological study(on the level of (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| (...) No. It *is* taken on faith. (Why are you capitalizing it?) Until and unless I buy a plane ticket, and go there and do the experiment (visiting Brazil), I am taking it on faith that other people's experiences of Brazil, however well or poorly (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| (...) No no, the point is that it IS taken on faith. Maybe not by YOU, but by some. Let's say something more obscure (someplace you HAVEN'T visited, seen pictures of, etc). I dunno, say Sri Lanka. Really you'd be best to suggest such a place, but (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| (...) Depends on how you want to phrase it: I find given the scale of the universe, it seems mathematically likely that there is extra-terrestrial life. Evidence is suggesting that planets are fairly common. The right mix of time, elements, (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| (...) I think they're more-or-less the same. It doesn't matter if you can verify something through the scientific method if you don't actually verify it. You are assuming that it is so - in other words, taking it on faith. Hundreds of thousands of (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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