Subject:
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Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:07:08 GMT
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Viewed:
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2020 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Nathan Todd writes:
> This is the key to any debate on God's love. As it was his greatest act
> of love. I will deal with your 3 points in order:
> 1) The mechanics:
> Think of a 3 leaf clover, the leaf's being God, Jesus, and the Holy
> Spirit (or Father, Son and Holy Ghost... you know who I mean). If you cut
> off one leaf... it dies. But the other 2 are still alive and so is the
> plant. Jesus *did* die (Luke the physician was there and said the blood and
> water seperated in his body). The God raised him from the dead.
> 2)"How is it that God having himself crucified is an atonement for our sins?"
> I think you were reading the Bible with a slight preference by the time
> you got to the NT. This is answered in many passages but I'll try my hand at
> in now.
> Basicaly, God created Adam and Eve *without* sin, or a default to God as
> someone was talking about earlier. They sinned,thus contaminating all their
> decendants, everyone, and changing the default to sin. Hence we are now all
> born with sin. Yes some sacrifices dissuaded punishment but it was more like
> pulling on a clean cloak over a dirty one.
> Then God sent Jesus to the world, as the son of God he was born with a
> default to God but yet as a man (not a god in disguise but as a man.)
> Jesus lived his whole life without sin. Something no one else could have
> done because of their default to evil. Then he died for our sins (literally
> taking everyones sins upon himself and accepting full judgement as if they
> were all his). Then, after 3 days, God raised him from the dead and after a
> few more days he assended to heaven.
> Now anyone who asks Jesus can be *forgiven* all their sins. Their sins are
> gone! God no longer sees you as a sinner but he sees you as righteous if you
> ask Jesus to forgive you your sins. It is a permanent solution. All who ask
> Jesus can become clean and be able to hav a relationship with God (as he
> intended) without fear that a new sin in his presence will bring judgement
> on you.
> God also invited all who believe to be adopted into his family, to
> become the sons of God.
These points aren't entirely correct and without going into a full bible
study I will write what I have found to be true
The points
1-3. God is not like unto a plant, you ought to look at Him more like this-
God the invisible spirit who is the "Father" who after man sinned provided a
way through the sacrifice of animals (there is no sacrifice without blood)
for sin to be pushed ahead. Israel (God's chosen people) were to show the
world God but fell time and again to sin because the left God out. God then
allowed Mary to become pregnant and God lived in the man Christ Jesus.
Man=flesh, God=spirit. These two were together in the man Christ. After
Jesus shed his own sinnless blood for sin he (his flesh) died. He rose from
the dead (flesh again) and his body was tranformed into a new body. Where
again the Father (spirit) dwelt within. Jesus, then gave his spirit (the
Father in him) which He called the Holy Ghost to the new covenant believers.
a. Spirit b. Spirit+flesh=Jesus c. Spirit in man=Holy Ghost
"Hear o'Israel, the Lord our God is one . . ." Not three.
2.
> > > This was the Second Covenant and it still holds today.
> >
> > *What* is the Second Covenant?
>
> Ask Jesus to be your savior and forgive your sins. And he will. Thus
> allowing you access to God.
Believe, repent, be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ (Father Son and
Holy Ghost are titles not a name, there is one name under heaven whereby we
must be saved, not three) and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost
(God's spirit in you). That is the start of the second covenant. After it
is started there is much more that will happen. Too much to get into. This
is the "new birth".
snip
>
> > > I personaly would find it hard to die so
> > > that someone else could live. Especially if that person was going to sit
> > > around 2000 odd years later declaring what a mean git I was (no offence,
> > > just an illustration).
> >
> > None taken. But, you know, if I was really, fully, and totally convinced
> > beyond a shadow of a doubt (as I assume Jesus was) that my suffering and
> > death would save the lives all humans from now until the end of time, I
> > don't really think it would be all that hard. In fact, when you think about
> > it, you'd be have to be one selfish %$^#& to not do it.
>
> It is easy to think about good people in this context. Think about what
> you would do if someone told you you could die for everyone on murder row
> and they would be let go. (Not neccesairly ever to thank you or even think
> well of you.)
Jesus died so that sins "would" be forgiven. Not are. A covenant is
conditional by both parties involved not just one.
> > > In this new covenant anyone at all could be free of their sins and live in
> > > God's love by accepting Jesus as the go between. Amazing Grace.
> >
> > Who couldn't be free of their sins befor Jesus? I thought there was a
> > system of atonement *before* Jesus. And if even the gentiles were, as you
> > say, "welcome to the covenant", who was excluded?
>
> You could cover the sins before. Now you can take on Jesus'
> righteousness by accepting his forgiveness.
Repentance is for forgiveness, baptism is for washing them away. Think like
this- playing in the mud in school clothes as a child. Mom, was not happy
but you said you sorry and that you wouldn't do it again. She forgives you
(repentance). Then she washes your clothes and sends you to the tub
(baptism). After the initial new birth (see above) it is by calling on
Jesus and claiming the blood He shed that will wash away new sins.
> > > > > God has chosen to have His message spread by a bunch of incompetant, sinful,
> > > > > *human* followers. I'll certainly give you that.
> > > >
> > > > Good choice, God.
> > >
> > > Yes it was. If God came down now in all his glory with a heavenly host
> > > and the ocean dried up and all the mountains fell over, and everyone all
> > > over the globe could see him at once I would be perty inclined to believe in
> > > him, what about you?
> >
> > I'd believe in something, alright. But I certainly wouldn't believe it was
> > an all-loving or merciful God unless his actions demonstrated it. And
> > drying up the oceans and knocking over mountains doesn't make for a very
> > good first impression. @8^)
>
> Just trying to make the point that you couldn't miss him.
> Forgive my ignorance, what does this mean?: @8^)
The very fact there were eight people on an ark thousands of years ago
should say something. Hypothetical- if you were god and made many wonderful
and beautiful things and creatures. And then you made one with
characteristics like unto your own. Then, it disobeys you who gave it it's
very life is that not reason enough to destroy it and start over? Therefore
God must love mankind if after all we've done and we are still around.
> SNIP
> > > > So I think my point is still valid that if God has some important message
> > > > for his people, he should not beat around the bush, using incompetent
> > > > messangers, and revealing pieces of the puzzle over thousands of years, but
> > > > just come right out and say it clearly and consistently to everyone.
> SNIP
Ta da, it's the bible! Everything you need to know about God and more.
> > > The first covenant was for everyone but only the jews really took him up
> > > on it (if half heartidly)
> >
> > The first covenant was for everyone? If the only evidence you have of that
> > is the passage about Abraham being a "blessing to all nations", I think that
> > ambiguous phrase is far outweighed by all God's talk throughout the Old
> > Testament of having the Israelites be *set aside* as God's personal
> > possession, his chosen people. You can't have a "chosen people" if it's not
> > an exclusive club. God promises are to Abraham and his descendants. That's
> > the Jews. Almost all mention of the gentiles in the Old Testament is about
> > how they are to either be properly avoided or killed.
God wanted people to love and worship Him. Not Baals or idols. You were
made with emotions like God. God is a jealous God. The gentiles were
supposed to look to the Jewish people and follow God but Israel was not a
good example.
>
>
> SNIP
> > > I don't write anything in the Bible off.
> >
> > It's good to have you as part of this debate, then, offering a very
> > different take on the Old Testament than John (Neal, not the apostle).
>
> Thanks.
>
> SNIP
> > > Free will again. God doesn't arm twist.
> >
> > I'm not asking God to twist my arm! Try this analogy: If you wanted to buy
> > a car, and were deciding between two cars, wouldn't you want all the
> > information you could get about these two cars? Wouldn't it help you make
> > the most informed choice if you had all that information presented to you in
> > clearest, most accurate form possible? Or would you rather base your
> > decision on some rumor that you heard from a friend of a friend of a friend?
> > It's not the differnce between having free will or having your arm twisted,
> > it's the differnce between making an informed decision and making a guess
> > based on garbled information.
>
> Think of it this way. I am a human living in a physical world surrounded
> by a spiritual one I can't see. Ever since Adam/Eve's failure (we all know
> who to blame on that one. LOL.) I work perty much entirely in the physical.
> I have all ready been cut off from the realm in which most of God's work
> goes on. God wants to raise me back up to the intended level of
> friend/son(and daughter in some cases). He could show me everything, roll
> away all my physical surroundings and say 'look I'm God, you're about the
> sise of a germ'. But he wants me to find my way back up to him. That way by
> the time I get there I will have a faith and understanding in God. I will be
> able to take up the offered place not just be the lowest on the scale.
>
>
> SNIP
> > If
> > you want to make a case for the existence of objective morality, I invite
> > you to, but I would ask that you start a brand new thread on OTD to
> > accomodate it.
>
> I think there is established good and evil. If not how can you call God
> mean or evil? Maybe he choose a different set of morals for himself then you
> would like to put on him.
>
> I think I'll drop this issue for now, if that is O.K.
>
> SNIP
> > >
> > > Closer then I thought...
> >
> > Hmm? What's closer to what than you thought?
>
> Sorry, I accidentaly cut out a few lines there. I was just refering to the
> nearness of the examples.
>
>
> I am going to do the examples next post (Sorry I have very limited time.)
> > > Try all the examples of mercy despite the need for judgement in the
> > > Old Testemant.
> >
> > I thought you said God *couldn't* be merciful in the face of the need for
> > judgment (in the Old Testament). If he *could* be merciful despite the need
> > for judgment, and repeatedly is not merciful (as the above examples show),
> > he is back to being a cruel and unusual God, which is my whole point.
>
> He can be merciful if you are not sinning in his direct prescence. eg
> Jonah.
>
> > > > > > By having his son/self get crucified by the Romans. Somehow I don't feel
> > > > > > reconciled.
>
> You have to accept it. (See above) It doesn't do anything for you if
> you don't.
>
> SNIP (next post)
> > > > You see it as amazing, I see it as silly.
> > >
> > > I'm glad!
> Again I cut the wrong line. I meant I'm glad of John's example.
>
> > I thought you were going to cry for me in heaven because I didn't convert?
> >
> > > > And the whole forgiving the people who crucified him doesn't really jibe
> > > > with the portrait of God from the Old Testament, and since there's a lot
> > > > more evidence on that side, it's hard for me to think of the Biblical God as
> > > > anything like forgiving.
> > >
> > > Do you have any evidence that from the cross he called down fire on his
> > > killers?
> >
> > Well, there was a big earthquake. That might have killed some people. @8^)
> > But no, I was saying that, sure, Jesus/God really does seem to forgive his
> > killers (at least in one of the gospels), but that there is so much contrary
> > evidence in the Old Testament that God is not in the least bit merciful or
> > forgiving, that this one instance of forgiveness is dwarfed. Besides, if
> > Jesus is God, he didn't really even die!
>
> See my explanation.
>
> SNIP next post
> > > Christianity requires faith. I can't make you believe it I can only defend
> > > what I have accepted as, and is, true. (no offense!)
>
>
> >
> > Also, the "what I have accepted as, *and is*, true" comes off as, "oh, and
> > by the way, even if my arguments aren't particularly convincing to you, just
> > remember, the important thing is: I'm right, and you're wrong". Not the
> > most civil way to sign off.
>
> Sorry not intended as rude. All I meant is that this whole thing
> requires faith. Something I could not debate into you (as must now be obvious.)
> >
> > -Rev. Smith
>
> Feel to wait for my final post. Forgive the dis-jointedness.
>
> BTW How does one finish a debate in .debate LOL
> BTW2 How do you get to this message board. (I look it up by searching red sea.
>
> Nathan
I doubt if you will read this and I doubt if I will try to find my way back.
If you (meaning Brendan or Nathan) would like to talk let me know via email.
Life is short and trying to scroll through all this is too much.
Nathan go to top view search and look under general I believe.
God is bigger than anyone will fully understand but simple enough that you
can know Him.
-Dan
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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| First off please see my email to you on the subject. Secondly let me say I agree with you and think you have put many things in a better way then myself. (...) A nice concise statement... Couldn't have put it better myself. SNIP (...) Yes, this is (...) (22 years ago, 11-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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| Massive SNIP (Read my first reply for these sections). (...) This is the key to any debate on God's love. As it was his greatest act of love. I will deal with your 3 points in order: 1) The mechanics: Think of a 3 leaf clover, the leaf's being God, (...) (22 years ago, 10-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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