Subject:
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Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 5 Dec 2002 04:27:11 GMT
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Viewed:
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1869 times
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So, ok. I have absolutely no issues other than personal preference when it
comes to the answers that Nathan's given-- They all make perfect sense.
However, they ONLY make sense accepting what we (or at least I) would
consider to be *IMPERFECTIONS* in God. See below examples snipped from above:
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Nathan Todd writes:
> God created man but unlike the angles man was created in God's image with
> free will.
By creating beings with "free will", God CANNOT know how they will react, or
else it's not free will. If the beings he creates are predetermined to act
in a certain way, and God attended every infintesimal detail of their
creation, he either doesn't KNOW what will happen, or his creations don't
actually have true free will.
> His mercy could not forgive without some offering to clean the sin and
> without a cleansing all evil is consumed in the presence of God (he does not
> enjoy this the way you picture it...
His mercy *COULD* not forgive? A limitation on God?
> Eventually they became so evil that God regretted making them, he
> had wanted them to be his friends by free will but instead they had grown
> evil. Despite his love for mankind his role as judge forced him to punish
> the sinners and start again with Noah.
God *REGRETTED* making them? That most definitely implies that he made a
mistake. Further, if he wanted to suddenly "start anew", why not just
*change* all the existing beings into "good" ones, rather than killing them
off? Loves the sinner, hates the sin? So why kill the sinner if God has the
option to simply remove their sinful nature?
> It seems to me God always had good things planned for us, we just screwed
> them up.
People are capable of screwing up God's plans?
> In this new covenant anyone at all could be free of their sins and live in
> God's love by accepting Jesus as the go between. Amazing Grace.
A *NEW* covenant? What was wrong with the old one? Why didn't he start
things off this way? Again, reminicient of God's error.
> After giving people a chance he has no choice but to bring about fair
> judgement.
Again, God had no choice? Implies he *can't* do something...
> > 6) Nb 16:41-50
> > When people complain that the deaths of the 250 rebels was wrongful, God
> > sends a plague on the sympathizers. Aaron has to intercede to curb God's
> > wrath, and succeeds, but only after 14,700 are dead.
>
> More rebellion, open and in numbers. Also false accusations, hatrid and
> many other sins. Please remeber all sins carry the death penalty unless some
> atonement is made, before Jesus' final offering God could not postpone
> judgement in hope that they would change if he was present. Also note Moses
> and Aron's attempts to save people.
My take on this example (and the next one) was that Aaron is actually able
to convince God to stop? Granted, I don't know the story on this one, but
why would God's "perfect" judgement be altered by an imperfect, free-willed
human?
> > 7) Nb 21:4-9
> > Again the Israelites complain about their life in the desert. This time God
> > sends venemous snakes to attack the complainers, many are killed, and only
> > the action of Moses prevents further deaths at God's hands.
>
> Same as the other complaints. vs 5 'The people spoke against God' they
> complained and lied to his face!
See above-- *Moses* convinces *God*.
> > And the whole forgiving the people who crucified him doesn't really jibe
> > with the portrait of God from the Old Testament, and since there's a lot
> > more evidence on that side, it's hard for me to think of the Biblical God as
> > anything like forgiving.
>
> Do you have any evidence that from the cross he called down fire on his
> killers?
I didn't get your response to this one. I took this as more of the same--
God's nature changes from the Old Testament (unforgiving stickler for the
rules, who takes every opportunity to act in smiting, etc) to the New
(forgiving, who takes nearly NO opportunities to act, except perhaps in
talking to people)
> Yes we deserve judgement God does not. He has only judged fairly.
Because we have the "God-given" right to free-will, I deem that God is
DEFINITELY deserving of our judgement. That's what we're here to do! Judge
God! Decide whether we want to worship him or not; decide whether to love
him or not; to accept him or not. How else are we to do this save to judge
God himself?
From the above examples, it appears that God is either imperfect, or
*chooses* to be imperfect. Or at the utter least, variable in his
still-somehow-perfect decisions. And using my own judgement, I judge the God
described in the above examples unworthy of my worship. A God who would be
worthy of my worship would act in a consistant manner; and would be
incapable of mistake. Certainly, any God who is "convinced" by anyone or
anything else to *change* his mind is no worthy God in my mind. You may
choose differently.
DaveE
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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| (...) Nice can of worms. Actually, if you *really* want to get into it... God is omniscient (by definition). So God *knows* whether we will choose to acknowledge Him or not, and thus it is predetermined (Predestination). It seems to me to be of (...) (22 years ago, 5-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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| (...) Wow, wish I could end a debate on that note! (This is a joke, please do not take offensce). (...) I assume from this you do not believe in God (particularly the God of christians). Please do not take it amiss if I refer to his existence in the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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| First off, since the primary issue here seems to be God's love. I will write with assurance he exists. (It is just a waste to debate the character of someone while debating their existence in the same post). So I am skipping over a long argument (...) (22 years ago, 5-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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