Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:55:18 GMT
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Viewed:
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3810 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes:
> > > > The next time anyone tells me the USofA is the 'free-est' nation on the
> > > > planet, I'm going to point to this thread (and other places) and say,
> > > > 'They're slaves to a piece of paper written 200+ years ago.'
> > >
> > > lol, and it is *because* of this self-imposed slavery that we *remain* the
> > > "free-est" and greatest nation on the planet.
> >
> >
> > Greatest? History, my friend, will see about that.
>
> Well, I meant *in* history, not for all time. The US is the greatest nation to
> have ever existed, even though we've only been around for 200odd years.
Sorry to pop in in this discussion like this, but I dispute this point of
yours. I'd acknowledge the United Kingdom as the greatest nation the world
has ever seen, even if its context was considerably different
(colonial/imperial, I mean).
You can say a lot about how great the USA are now, and you won't be totally
wrong (the country is great, IMO), but bear in mind that the American way of
life had its origin in the British way of life... And so far, the USA have
not originated any significant nation. :-) To my view, the ultimate evidence
that the UK was the greatest nation to date is the fact that it parted
itself into viable countries when needed, after giving them all the best it
could of its own costumes.
> Heck,
> Americans have driven SUVs on the moon-- we've landed stuff on Mars!
The purpose of that remains disputable - science is great, but has the
condition of the average man been significantly improved thanks to Space
exploration? It is my oppinion that the moon trip was purely a showoff, a
good display of "we CAN do that, even though it's no use". An advertising
stunt, for the Cold War context.
> And yet,
> we could have rightfully claimed those places our own, but we didn't!
Could you have kept them? (see the concept for African partition in Berlin
Conference, 1883 - you can only claim it if you occupy it ;-)
> We are
> simply unlike any other nation to have ever been.
True.
> But if you have a nomination
> for a greater one, I'm all ears.
See above.
Additionally, I'd risk pointing out that Norway seems to be now the greatest
place to live in, according to UN statistics - Canada dropped it's place in
the rank a short while ago. And if a place is the best one to live in, it is
fair to call it "the greatest", don't you agree? :-)
> > If that paper disappeared right now, what would happen?
> > Would you *poof* disappear? Would your homeland cease to be the United
> > States of America, and revert back into the French Territory of Louisana,
> > Mexico and whatever else there was before 1776? Somehow I doubt it. Just
> > as I would not stop being a Christian because you took away my Bible, you
> > would not cease to be American if the Constitution were to disappear. You
> > have laws, you have judges, you have appeals, you have government. The
> > Constitution is a guideline and a pretty good one at that, as to how to do
> > things, but it should never be put above the individual.
>
> The Constitution *is* our government, and without the government, there is
> nothing to protect the rights of the people, and without that protection, you
> have anarchy, which is a far cry from the US today. Damn right this country
> would cease to exist as we know it.
Are you this sure about the importance of an immutable Constitution? Our has
a clause in it that forces parliament to review it every 10 years or less,
no matter how good it is, to keep it up-to-date. It has worked fine... would
you claim the mere actualization of the Constitutional text, in order to
clarify it in the light of today's lifestyle, would torn apart the USA???
This can't be a good thing...
> > This post gets my vote for being the typical Arrogant American writing.
> >
> > -Our very greatness as a nation
> > -They are the cornerstone of our greatness
> > -that we *remain* the "free-est" and greatest nation on the planet
> >
> > If I were prone to doing a world tour, backpacking like and just on a
> > walkabout--which flag would I rather have sewn on my backpak, Canada or
> > America? Which flag would open more doors for me, and which would slam more
> > doors in my face?
>
> Totally irrelevant. Dave, I really couldn't care less what other countries
> think of us. If they hate us, that's their problem (unless they hate us so
> much that they start killing us, in which case I care a lot)
And what do you think of other countries? Is there any country you could try
to live in? Would you try to adapt to a new country (suppose you had to
emmigrate due to work reasons), or isolate in the "american quarter" and
whine about how misfortunate you'd be for living abroad?
I dunno, but it seems to me you are simplifying the relation of your country
with the RoTW. No two countries are alike, all have good points and bad
points, that can't be "counted". Just because you believe your system is
great and suitable to you, that alone does not mean it *is*... ;-)
> > Don't go telling me, and the rest of the world that America is the greatest
> > country inthe world--remove the plank out of your eye before you try to tell
> > me that.
>
> Again I challenge you to name a nation greater than the US in *any* category
> (but please, don't mention sports). I'm not saying we are perfect-- far, far
> from it. We have plenty of issues. All I am saying is that, given the lot of
> the world's countries today, there is simply no comparison. I say this not as
> a braggart; it just happens to be a fact.
(See above for nations)
I dispute this "fact" to be even a valid statement! (there really isn't a
universal form of comparison between countries, is it?)
> But show me I'm wrong. I know this is coming off as a lot of flag-waving and
> Patriotic rhetoric, but try to see beyond that and really take a look at what
> this country has done in 200ish short years. It's downright remarkable. And
> then try and *explain* the US's success. And try not to conclude with "dumb
> luck":-)
In two words: Pacific + Atlantic. Geography alone has given the USA great
opportunities, and the settlers knew how to profit from them. They did
right, and built a great nation. I only dispute it to be "the greatest to
date", or even the greatest *now*.
Pedro Silva
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