Subject:
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Re: Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:30:06 GMT
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Viewed:
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539 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> > > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am impressed by the way he moved from anti-Semitism to the USA pro-Israeli
> > > > > > > > lobby without using the "Z" word. As for events in Durban, the USA cast its
> > > > > > > > own die there, and perhaps that outcome could be "rationalised".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How did we cast our own die there? (I really want to know.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I may be wrong, but I think the USA poured cold water on the meeting well
> > > > > > before it even started as is was going to give its friends in the Middle
> > > > > > East a hard time. So if the USA did not play ball because of the way Israel
> > > > > > was being treated, is at any wonder they become associated with them?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not happy with the bedfellow relationship that my government has with
> > > > > Israel, so, no, I'm not suprised by the associations made between the U.S. and
> > > > > Israel. However...absolutely hateful and unplacatable anti-Israel and anti-
> > > > > Semitic rhetoric is far too common (and commonly accepted) by great portions of
> > > > > the international political community.
> > > >
> > > > I have partly fallen in to the trap laid by Wasserstein. One can be:
> > > > A Jew but not a Zionist.
> > > > A Zionist but not a Jew.
> > > > A Zionist Israeli but not an Jew
> > > > etc etc
> > > >
> > > > The problem is people on both side choose to confuse the terms. Israeli are
> > > > very quick to call any criticism of them "anti-Semitic" and invoke memories
> > > > of WW2.
> > > >
> > > > > Whatever good intentions those at Durban
> > > > > may have had, amending anti-Semitism didn't seem to be one of them.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps if Israel played its part in the international community its voice
> > > > too could have been heard in Durban?
> > >
> > > Granted, it would probably be in Israel's best interests to participate on the
> > > "world stage" but that doesn't mean that Middle Eastern countries have a free
> > > pass to throw around absolutely hateful rhetoric in the meantime.
> >
> > The longer Israel plays the bad guy, the longer the people who "govern"
> > places like Saudi-Arabia and Syria will have a distraction for their own
> > people. I expect that if Israel were to all-of-a-sudden become a good boy, a
> > few of the neighbours would have “internal problems”.
>
> What would it mean for Israel to play the good boy? Surely, they can't placate
> the demands of *all* neighboring states. Israel exists (though the how and why
> of it be may be questionable.) It's destruction is not an option; peace is only
> going to come with compromise and sacrifice from Jews and Arabs alike. Syria,
> for example, seems to be unready to consider any options that recognize the
> eventual sovereignty of firm Israeli borders.
Ignore the neighbours for now. Think about how the current troubles started
13 months ago. Think about all those lovely residential developments Israel
is allowing on land which does not belong to them. Think about the innocents
they are killing as part of offensive actions.
>
> > > A congress on
> > > racism that tolerates anti-Semitism is hollow and without moral weight, no
> > > matter what other ills it is successful in addressing.
> >
> > An honest question : But was it really anti-Semitism, or just anti-Israeli?
>
> I don't know, but what would it seem if the tables were turned on some other
> people? Would we be so quick to make semantical distinction were powerful
> governments calling for the absolute destruction of (to use an almost absurd
> hypothetical example in the interests of constructing a thought experiment) the
> Zambian goverment and all Zambian settlements? Whether they be anti-Israeli or
> anti-Semitic in intent, threatening statements issued by governments such as
> Syria can only be expected to to be taken by Jews (both secular and religious)
> as a challenge to their integrity as a people.
>
> Another point/question that I have is this: what reasonable goals do merely
> "anti-Israel" nations hope to achieve?
I do not think that is really on the agenda. I think they would settle for a
Palestinian Jerusalem & West Bank. I doubt they’ll get it.
> If Israel is dismantled, what follows?
> What becomes of the Jewish people? We simply replace one human rights disaster
> with another. The only way for peace and stability to be achieved in the Middle
> East is for hard compromises to be made on both sides, but violent anti-Israel
> rhetoric only further entrenches the Israeli position. For better or worse,
> Israel -- with whatever boundaries -- is a permanent place, and
> he goal should
> be the creation of a Palestinian homeland concurrent with (not in replacement
> of) Israel.
I agree.
>
> One other point that I'd like to make is that while there is a lot of anti-
> Israeli sentiment issuing from governments such as Syria, there isn't a lot of
> helpful work being done in support of Palestinans by these nations. Syria and
> Jordan are disingenuous: neither wants an intransient Palestinian refugee
> population on their hands. Both want Palestine to be Israel's problem, and
> they'd prefer to wash their hands clean of the matter and see the destruction of
> Israel without taking a responsible leadership role in going anything to
> qualitatively help the Palestinians besides giving support to terrorist
> organizations.
To a large extent I agree, see my earlier comments about Syria.
Scott A
>
> james
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism
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| (...) What would it mean for Israel to play the good boy? Surely, they can't placate the demands of *all* neighboring states. Israel exists (though the how and why of it be may be questionable.) It's destruction is not an option; peace is only going (...) (23 years ago, 26-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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