Subject:
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Re: Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:44:46 GMT
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Viewed:
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470 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > >
> > > > > > > I am impressed by the way he moved from anti-Semitism to the USA pro-Israeli
> > > > > > > lobby without using the "Z" word. As for events in Durban, the USA cast its
> > > > > > > own die there, and perhaps that outcome could be "rationalised".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How did we cast our own die there? (I really want to know.)
> > > > >
> > > > > I may be wrong, but I think the USA poured cold water on the meeting well
> > > > > before it even started as is was going to give its friends in the Middle
> > > > > East a hard time. So if the USA did not play ball because of the way Israel
> > > > > was being treated, is at any wonder they become associated with them?
> > > >
> > > > I'm not happy with the bedfellow relationship that my government has with
> > > > Israel, so, no, I'm not suprised by the associations made between the U.S. and
> > > > Israel. However...absolutely hateful and unplacatable anti-Israel and anti-
> > > > Semitic rhetoric is far too common (and commonly accepted) by great portions of
> > > > the international political community.
> > >
> > > I have partly fallen in to the trap laid by Wasserstein. One can be:
> > > A Jew but not a Zionist.
> > > A Zionist but not a Jew.
> > > A Zionist Israeli but not an Jew
> > > etc etc
> > >
> > > The problem is people on both side choose to confuse the terms. Israeli are
> > > very quick to call any criticism of them "anti-Semitic" and invoke memories
> > > of WW2.
> > >
> > > > Whatever good intentions those at Durban
> > > > may have had, amending anti-Semitism didn't seem to be one of them.
> > >
> > > Perhaps if Israel played its part in the international community its voice
> > > too could have been heard in Durban?
> >
> > Granted, it would probably be in Israel's best interests to participate on the
> > "world stage" but that doesn't mean that Middle Eastern countries have a free
> > pass to throw around absolutely hateful rhetoric in the meantime.
>
> The longer Israel plays the bad guy, the longer the people who "govern"
> places like Saudi-Arabia and Syria will have a distraction for their own
> people. I expect that if Israel were to all-of-a-sudden become a good boy, a
> few of the neighbours would have “internal problems”.
What would it mean for Israel to play the good boy? Surely, they can't placate
the demands of *all* neighboring states. Israel exists (though the how and why
of it be may be questionable.) It's destruction is not an option; peace is only
going to come with compromise and sacrifice from Jews and Arabs alike. Syria,
for example, seems to be unready to consider any options that recognize the
eventual sovereignty of firm Israeli borders.
> > A congress on
> > racism that tolerates anti-Semitism is hollow and without moral weight, no
> > matter what other ills it is successful in addressing.
>
> An honest question : But was it really anti-Semitism, or just anti-Israeli?
I don't know, but what would it seem if the tables were turned on some other
people? Would we be so quick to make semantical distinction were powerful
governments calling for the absolute destruction of (to use an almost absurd
hypothetical example in the interests of constructing a thought experiment) the
Zambian goverment and all Zambian settlements? Whether they be anti-Israeli or
anti-Semitic in intent, threatening statements issued by governments such as
Syria can only be expected to to be taken by Jews (both secular and religious)
as a challenge to their integrity as a people.
Another point/question that I have is this: what reasonable goals do merely
"anti-Israel" nations hope to achieve? If Israel is dismantled, what follows?
What becomes of the Jewish people? We simply replace one human rights disaster
with another. The only way for peace and stability to be achieved in the Middle
East is for hard compromises to be made on both sides, but violent anti-Israel
rhetoric only further entrenches the Israeli position. For better or worse,
Israel -- with whatever boundaries -- is a permanent place, and the goal should
be the creation of a Palestinian homeland concurrent with (not in replacement
of) Israel.
One other point that I'd like to make is that while there is a lot of anti-
Israeli sentiment issuing from governments such as Syria, there isn't a lot of
helpful work being done in support of Palestinans by these nations. Syria and
Jordan are disingenuous: neither wants an intransient Palestinian refugee
population on their hands. Both want Palestine to be Israel's problem, and
they'd prefer to wash their hands clean of the matter and see the destruction of
Israel without taking a responsible leadership role in going anything to
qualitatively help the Palestinians besides giving support to terrorist
organizations.
james
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism
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| (...) Ignore the neighbours for now. Think about how the current troubles started 13 months ago. Think about all those lovely residential developments Israel is allowing on land which does not belong to them. Think about the innocents they are (...) (23 years ago, 28-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism
|
| (...) The longer Israel plays the bad guy, the longer the people who "govern" places like Saudi-Arabia and Syria will have a distraction for their own people. I expect that if Israel were to all-of-a-sudden become a good boy, a few of the neighbours (...) (23 years ago, 26-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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