Subject:
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Re: What is spam? (was Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:46:24 GMT
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Viewed:
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865 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1402000/1402880.stm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wow!.. Is this really a big news story? I didn't expected that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd characterise it as significant! It's bad news for democracy to ban
> > > > > > political parties (or make the playing field uneven, as it is in the US),
> > > > > > even ones that are advocating non democratic courses. (that is why banning
> > > > > > the Communist party was wrong back when the US did it)
> > > > >
> > > > > I really don't agree. In a country like mine, you can't go fully democratic
> > > > > since there is no common sense majority that prevent the population from • total
> > > > > collapse into some stupid "islamic republic" thing, just like in Iran. In a
> > > > > country like mine, where the education level of people quite low and • distorted,
> > > > > where we still talking about litracy rates (still less than 90% by the way) • you
> > > > > cannot allow a bunch of people playing with very sensitive issues like
> > > > > religion, by which gathering quite big mass of fans is very easy.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Was it something you were aware of already, Selçuk? That is, did it make • the
> > > > > > Turkish press? And how does the Turkish press reporting contrast with the
> > > > > > BBCs? My view of the Turkish press (based on nothing at all other than gut
> > > > > > feeling and some superficial reading) is that it's not particularly free.
> > > > > > (tieing back to the First Amendment and freedom of press)
> > > > >
> > > > > Larry, don't do that to me..:-) Yes, Turkey is a 3rd world country, still
> > > > > trying to immitate playing in the first league, but we are certainly not
> > > > > "patagonia" from a B-movie spy story.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course I'm aware of that, and of course it was first news during the • whole
> > > > > final stage of the judgement. There are more than 20 leading national
> > > > > newspapers (none state owned), more than 20 national TV channels (only 1 • state
> > > > > owned) and countless local ones of each. And of course all of them given • the
> > > > > news of it from their point of view. Religious ones protested, common • popular
> > > > > media didn't make comments, and social democrat ones approved. None of • which
> > > > > closed or something.
> > > > >
> > > > > Our mother law does not allow foundation of political parties of that kind
> > > > > (advocating of a certain part of people over the others, related to race,
> > > > > religion, class, etc.), and one of the first articles of the same law • clearly
> > > > > indicates that Turkish Republic is laicist. It must be closed under the • current
> > > > > law, and it is closed, that's all. So I still can't understand why this • stupid
> > > > > issue makes an entry in Scott's top 4 list.
> > > >
> > > > I still can (although it is not a "top 4 list"). The fact is that Turkey is
> > > > an oppressive country which is, as you say, "trying to imitate playing in
> > > > the first league". I think it is important that everyone knows what sort of
> > > > place Turkey is (A point I think you agree with by inviting LP there). I
> > > > note, with some interest, that the UK may not back the Ilusu dam:
> > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4213887,00.html
> > > >
> > > > And if Larry does venture to Turkey, do you recommend that he does not
> > > > express any views which may lead the security forces feeling that he
> > > > supports "some stupid" Turkish Islamic Republic? If he does, will they take
> > > > him away during the night?
> > > >
> > > > Scott A
> > >
> > > Are you cluless or what? Yeah I'm really meaning it. I know what sort of • place
> > > Turkey is, but do you really?
> > >
> > > For your information, political islam is very strong here in Turkey, and they
> > > have all the support from all levels of government and breukracy. The party • is
> > > closed because they push the limits way tooooooo much, in an extent which
> > > cannot be covered by their protective sheets. You can do almost anything
> > > supporting the islam or almost anything by saying "because of islam" and you
> > > will be most probably applauded, not taken over during night.
> > >
> > > By the way, read someother things about us, not your biased media 8or ours, • or
> > > theirs) and try to meet someone who lived in Turkey at least for a while, if
> > > this issue is very important to you as you mentioned above.
> >
> > Unlike the media in many other countries, some of the media in the UK really
> > is independant. Independent even of corporate advertising. Before I posted
> > the message I had replied to, I read this article about how visitors to
> > Turkey had been treated by your police. Perhaps they were "clueless" to:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/from_our_own_correspondent/newsid_86200
> 0/862056.stm
>
> So what? Some of your parliements came here to make troble, and police came and
"make trouble"? Were they stealing cars? Were they breaking into shops? What
was this "trouble"?
> ask for their papers, and went back when they refused to show. I can't see any
> problem here.
In the UK it would be called harrasment.
> Maybe you just can't imagine in your ivory tower to what extent
> Turkish Police could produce problems?..:-)
Perhaps not.
>
> > > I'm not agains't
> > > your effort of trying the show others "what sort of place Turkey is", but
> > > please do it correctly. There are so many issues about the things going wrong
> > > in Turkey, so pressing the stupid points would not help nothing but • clulessness
> > > of you.
> > >
> > > By the way please do not continue giving stupid biased site addresses here. • If
> > > you check out our previous fight, I already made my statement about this • "ilisu
> > > dam" thing before. Go read it.
> > >
> > > http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=10056
> >
> > I have not seen any independent report which backs the dam project. Perhaps
> > you need to read independent reports on it? A quick search for "ilisu dam"
> > produces these "clueless" sites - some of which are independent:
> > http://www.ilisu.org.uk/
> > http://www.rivernet.org/tmpilisu.htm
> > http://www.sarahludfordmep.org.uk/
> > http://www.wac.uct.ac.za/whd/ilisu_lett.htm
> > http://www.foe.co.uk/pubsinfo/infoteam/pressrel/2001/20010703172558.html
> > http://www.eca-watch.org/artwestminister.html
> > http://www.heureka.clara.net/sunrise/ilisu.htm
> > http://www.khrp.org/publish/p1999/ilisu%20report.htm
> > http://www.peopleandplanet.org/ilisu/
> > http://www.irn.org/wcd/ilisu.shtml
> > http://www.labournet.net/ukunion/0101/balfour1.html
>
> Look Scott; In very rare cases (as I've seen), you can act like a man who
> understands what people are saying, and I'm praying right now you are in this
> mood again while reading this part of the message. At first, if you have all
> these independent (so *of course* they must be unbaised at the same time) sites
> at your hand, whay do you give the most stupid one at first(1), so allowing
> me, Selçuk the poor little third worlder, making a dumb out of you?
I have no probelm with that site.
> Second, I don't care anything about the damned Ilisu dam. Do you ever heard the
> Turkish phrase "sikimden asagi kasimpasa"(2)? Should I add that I really really
> don't care about English support for the damned dam project? Would your
> country doing it as a donation? Huh? Why do you still believe that supporting
> it or not should be my concern?
The issue is bigger than the dam. If Turkey cannot be trusted to build a
dam, why should they get into the EU?
>
> Damn', this ilisu dam thing was not the subject, not even related to it. Even
> it was not so related when you first mentioned it in a previous old fight,
> wasn't it?
That dam is one of the 1st things that pops into my mind when I hear the
name of your country.
Scott A
>
> Selçuk
>
> (1)http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=10056
> (2)if you know the meaning, you already know that I won't continue anymore.
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