Subject:
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Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:25:43 GMT
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Viewed:
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779 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Matthew Gerber writes:
> Also, I will be taking my facts from:
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_branc.htm . Go there and read it
> yourselves.
It is an interesting read. Thanks for the URL.
> > > Waco was tragic. In a sense.
> >
> > In a sense? A bunch of people died for no good reason and most Americans
> > don't even care! It is way more than tragic "in a sense."
> Also, I will expect
> to see solid proof of your statement that "most Americans don't even care"
> before I'll ever start lending your post any real credence.
You have quite an attitude about this, don't you? Well, I don't have proof.
What I have is hundreds of
conversations on the matter and an overall impression that across demographics,
most people think that David
Koresh specifically, and the Branch Davidians generally, got what they
deserved. Does your personal
experience differ? During the standoff and immediately after, I spoke to
college classes about the inequity
suffered by the Branch Davidians during the bungled arrest and following siege
and was almost universally met
with hostility.
> The fact that you seem to be glossing over here is the fact that authorized
> members of our government were doing their required job by trying to serve a
> warrant at the Waco compound:
I'm not glossing over that at all. We hadn't discussed any specifics. But we
can now.
Why was a team of 76 soldiers needed to serve a search warrant? The Sheriff
had served warrant at the front
door of the Mt. Carmel dwelling a few times and had taken Koresh into custody
without threat or fear of
violence and without experiencing any difficulty. Why wasn't he consulted by
the BATF prior to their
egregiously violent raid? Why did their little warrant-serving army approach
with automatic weapons under the
cover of night instead of just driving up during the day?
> The kids are the only real, true tragedy. They were the innocent
> ones, the ones who had no choice but to be there because their parents were
> there also.
While I basically agree that they were the only ones with no choice in the
matter, I'm not sure why the needless
loss of adult life doesn't constitute a tragedy in your mind.
> "Were there illegal weapons at Waco?: Probably there were. Koresh implied so
> in a telephone conversation with the FBI; he also admitted it to his lawyer.
You included this as part of the response to my claim that the deaths of the
adult Branch Davidians, the
miscarriage of justice, and lack of public concern were tragedies. And you
asserted that those things were
not. How does the presence of weapons alter the tragic aspect of the
situation?
Further, I reject that there were any illegal weapons because laws in the
nation are always secondary to the
ultimate law dictated by the constitution, which is quite clear on this topic.
There are no such thing as "illegal
weapons."
And even if you accept that such a white elephant exists, the presence of those
weapons, even now is only
"probable." That seems like a pretty awful reason to kill a bunch of folks.
> "How were the fires started?:
Again, I'm not sure how this affects the tragic nature of the events.
> There is one belief that when a tank punched a
> hole in a compound wall, it overturned a propane tank which broke into
> flames. However, this scenario cannot account for the large number of small,
> separate blazes that were observed to start about the same time in many
> buildings.
How does incendiary grenades fired by FBI agents sound as a plausible
explanation? I remember sitting on
my couch watching the news as federal agents fired incendiary grenades into the
Branch Davidian's home as an
FBI official stated to the reporter on camera that they were not doing that.
It was in the background! And
only recently (I heard it on an NPR news program 1-2 weeks ago) the FBI has
admitted to having used such
devices. Duh!
> There is another belief that Koresh ordered quantities of
> kerosene to be placed around the compound and lit manually.
Maybe. I'm not ruling out anything suggesting that they had their own
problems. I'm not really qualified to
judge that evidence, nor do I have it before me. Koresh was in all likelihood
a nutcase.
> See above to cover the "people like you don't even care" thing.
See what above? You didn't even address it. You merely made some pompous
claim that you expected to
see 'proof' of something. I can only read from your text (and I have more of
it supporting my opinion now)
that you don't particularly grieve for the Branch Davidians or for the erosion
of justice in the US.
> I'll now
> expect to see my name on the actual printed roster of the names of Americans
> Who Don't Care About the Events at Waco you need to produce.
You're a riot! Need?
> Please do not
> propose to lump me into a group when you have no real idea who I am or what
> I believe/think, especially if what you DO know of me from LUGNET will not
> support the lumping-in.
I only spoke what I saw. Don't lump yourself in if you don't want people
calling what they see.
> > > Was the government to blame?
> >
> > Yes!
>
> Funny, that's not what the courts have decided.
Well, duh! You didn't think they'd admit that they were totally to blame do
you? They'll do that in fifty years
when all the participants are dead or in old folks homes and not before.
> But then, I would guess that
> you don't agree with the ruling, huh? Only thing is, it's been done.
Of course I don't. I've analyzed the situation with nothing to protect. It is
blatantly obvious that the BATF and
the FBI were criminally negligent in their handling of the situation. What
does "it's been done" mean? Do you
mean that a court made a decision and so we must accept their findings as
truth? I will never agree to that. I
would rather die.
What about when a state congress rules that pi=3.14 (with out continuing
digits)? What about when a court
convicts a murderer and sentences them to death and kids in J-school unearth
loads of contratictory evidence
that the police didn't or couldn't obtain and it turns out that the state
gassed the wrong guy? The truth is not
defined by a court.
> "Time.com started a web-site poll on 1999-AUG-26. It asks the question: "Who
> do you believe started the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco."
> The results, as of 2000-MR-6 were: Law enforcement 60%, Branch Davidians
> 34%, Not sure 6% These values should not be considered to be an accurate
> estimate of American public opinion. Contributors to the poll were
> self-selected."
>
> Don't miss the irony of the last two lines of the quote.
I don't get it. You want me to provide proof -- proof that could only take the
form of survey results
extrapolated to the populace, yet you point out that such surveys are fraught
with inaccuracy. What is the
irony that you noticed?
> > > Or were their parents who had
> > > involved them in the first place?
> >
> > Only to the same extent that a parent is to blame when their child dies in an
> > automobile accident that wasn't their fault. A truck (the feds) hit a Honda
> > (the Branch Davidians) head on while the Honda was in its own lane doing its
> > own thing...and you're suggestion that it was the driver of the Honda's • fault.
> > Bull!
>
> Nope again. Sorry. See above ("Nope. The kids are...").
Saying "nope" isn't much of an argument. Can you do better?
> > > Or was Koresh? Doesn't matter now...does it?
> >
> > Yes, it most certainly does. It is not too late to punish the murderers.
> > Legally even.
>
> The true 'murders' are dead. Only thing is, they committed
> suicide-by-government, while couching their actions in false religious
> dogma.
What?!?!? Who did they murder? And who the hell are you to say that their
little religion was false? I mean,
I agree that their pantheon doesn't actually exist, but I think that about
whatever supernatural beliefs you have
too. If you are a Christian (I seriously don't know) then you presumably
believe that the savior will come
again, right? How do you know that it wasn't David Koresh? (And if your
answer is "because he failed" then
I ask, how did you know before that?)
> At the most, government agents might be considered
> unwilling/unwitting accessories to the deaths, but you'll need to see my
> post to Larry for more on that.
No. Each man who fired and the management who sent them there are all
murderers. Each one should be
tried. If I was told by my employer to do that, I would refuse.
> > > McVeigh could have kept his actions peaceful...instead he caused another
> > > tragedy, and tragedy + tragedy = 0.
> >
> > I certainly agree that he shouldn't have done what he did. But I'm not
> > convinced that peace is always the way to go.
>
> Then stay the hell away from me and mine. I don't want to be within a
> hundred miles of you when you decide it is your time to make a statement.
So, you're a complete and total hard-line pacifist? You think that saving
Europe's bacon during WWII was a
great evil for the US? I respect that about you, but I can't agree. There are
evils so great that violence, as an
ultimate solution is justified.
> > > Should he have been executed? It's the
> > > law of the land...he knew that before he started planning the bombing. The
> > > Branch Davidians knew the laws also. They made their choices, and you can't
> > > place the blame for that on anyone but them.
> >
> > Horseshi<gag, muffle, muffle>!
It occurs to me that it might look like I meant that McVeigh shouldn't have
been executed. That's not what I
was responding to...just the bit about blaming the victims in the Waco
massacre.
(I am opposed to McVeigh's execution, like I am all executions, for lots of
reasons. But that's not what I was
saying.)
> > They didn't do anything wrong.
>
> That is not/was not the consensus of our duly elected/appointed government.
> They are the only government we have in place, and it will be a long time
> before there is a major change in that.
And?
When you ask a four year old if just painted on the wall, he says no because he
knows that that should be the
answer. Same with the government protecting itself. (hint: they're lying)
> You are, of course, more than welcome to your own beliefs and opinions.
Yes, thanks. I'll base mine on reality if it doesn't offend you too terribly
much.
> You
> can even sit in a shack in the woods plotting whatever violence you refer to
> above.
I'm sorry? What are you talking about?
> However, 1) again, stay the hell away from me and my family when you
> decide to do whatever it may be,
Whatever.
> and 2) don't be overly surprised when the
> government agents come to get you.
I wouldn't be _that_ surprised. I'm sure I'm on lists somewhere. After all,
my eyes aren't occluded by a red
white 'n' blue blindfold, the way some peoples' are.
> After all, that's what they are there
> for. To protect me and my family from people who would harm us.
Koresh didn't want to harm you. If all they were there to do was protect us,
that would be one thing.
Deciding to joy ride with some new hardware and kill off some particularly
disenfranchised citizens, on the
other hand, is completely unacceptable.
Chris
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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| Here we go again. Sorry for the length, but some folks need to have facts pounded in nice and tight before they begin to comprehend. (...) Then, don't pretend to know my mind. Maybe I need to put an (s) after each statement meant to be sarcastic? (...) (23 years ago, 17-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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| Before reading this post in reply to Christopher Weeks reply to my reply to Larry Pieniazek's original post, please read my reply to Larry's reply to my reply to his original post here: (URL) . It will help solidify all of my post here. Warning, the (...) (23 years ago, 17-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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