Subject:
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Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 17 Jun 2001 05:04:33 GMT
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Viewed:
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555 times
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Before reading this post in reply to Christopher Weeks reply to my reply to
Larry Pieniazek's original post, please read my reply to Larry's reply to my
reply to his original post here:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=10991 . It will help solidify all
of my post here. Warning, the other post is REALLY long (although this one
is no slouch either!)
Also, I will be taking my facts from:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_branc.htm . Go there and read it
yourselves. I think it is the most fair, most even-handed stating of the
facts of the events of Waco I have ever read (though there are a few typos
and grammatical errors-may be the transcription). Hence, you will see
quotations, some that may contain superflous information, even things that
may refute my own feelings/beliefs, but they are kept because thay usually
offer up fair counterpoint in the same quote.
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Matthew Gerber writes:
>
> > Waco was tragic. In a sense.
>
> In a sense? A bunch of people died for no good reason and most Americans don't
> even care! It is way more than tragic "in a sense."
Yes, in a sense. Did I stutter? No, I couldn't have, I was typing. A bunch
of people died for LOTS of reasons, many of which take some of the 'tragic'
edge off of the event for me. These will be shown below. Also, I will expect
to see solid proof of your statement that "most Americans don't even care"
before I'll ever start lending your post any real credence.
The fact that you seem to be glossing over here is the fact that authorized
members of our government were doing their required job by trying to serve a
warrant at the Waco compound:
"The ATF decided to arrest David Koresh on firearms violations. He could
have been easily arrested away from the compound while jogging or while
visiting Waco. But apparently it was necessary for them to arrest him at the
compound near the guns in order to have a chance of winning a court case."
> > Innocent
> > children died. Tragic events and the deaths of children happen each and
> > every day.
>
> The kids are not the only tragedy. The adults are too. As is the fact that
> such a miscarriage of justice could take place in the United States at all.
> And worst of all is the fact that people like you don't even care.
Nope. The kids are the only real, true tradgedy. They were the innocent
ones, the ones who had no choice but to be there because their parents were
there also. They never asked to be included in the group. The young girls
Koresh took as wives to meet his self-imposed quota of children-by-virgins
wouldn't have been available to him if it were not for their parents
activity and consent. The parents made their choices...the children had none.
"Were there illegal weapons at Waco?: Probably there were. Koresh implied so
in a telephone conversation with the FBI; he also admitted it to his lawyer.
There is also evidence in the form of a famous video clip showing bullets
emerging from within the building and penetrating the outside wall; the
firing rate and uniformity indicates an automatic weapon. The McLennan
County Sheriff's Office determined that UPS had been delivering components
which could convert legal firearms into fully automatic (illegal) weapons. 4
live grenades, 6 grenade launchers and 48 automatic weapons were recovered
after the fire, in addition to 151 legal weapons. Countless rounds of
bullets and a number of hand grenades exploded during the fire. When the
"bunker" was excavated, about 750,000 bullet casings were found."
"How were the fires started?: There is one belief that when a tank punched a
hole in a compound wall, it overturned a propane tank which broke into
flames. However, this scenario cannot account for the large number of small,
separate blazes that were observed to start about the same time in many
buildings. There is another belief that Koresh ordered quantities of
kerosene to be placed around the compound and lit manually. This is
supported by the video evidence which seems to show a number of small fires
that quickly combined into a general conflagration. The engineering
consulting firm Failure Analysis were hired by the National Riflemen's
Association to study the fire. They presented their findings at a seminar at
MIT, concluding that a series of small fires were most likely set by the
Branch Davidians themselves. An anti-government propaganda film shows a tank
equipped with a flame thrower attacking a building. The film was crudely
doctored and a phony flame was added in a film lab."
See above to cover the "people like you don't even care" thing. I'll now
expect to see my name on the actual printed roster of the names of Americans
Who Don't Care About the Events at Waco you need to produce. Please do not
propose to lump me into a group when you have no real idea who I am or what
I believe/think, epecially if what you DO know of me from LUGNET will not
support the lumping-in.
> > Was the government to blame?
>
> Yes!
Funny, that's not what the courts have decided. But then, I would guess that
you don't agree with the ruling, huh? Only thing is, it's been done.
"Time.com started a web-site poll on 1999-AUG-26. It asks the question: "Who
do you believe started the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco."
The results, as of 2000-MR-6 were: Law enforcement 60%, Branch Davidians
34%, Not sure 6% These values should not be considered to be an accurate
estimate of American public opinion. Contributors to the poll were
self-selected."
Don't miss the irony of the last two lines of the quote.
> > Or were their parents who had
> > involved them in the first place?
>
> Only to the same extent that a parent is to blame when their child dies in an
> automobile accident that wasn't their fault. A truck (the feds) hit a Honda
> (the Branch Davidians) head on while the Honda was in its own lane doing its
> own thing...and you're suggestin that it was the driver of the Honda's fault.
> Bull!
Nope again. Sorry. See above ("Nope. The kids are...").
> > Or was Koresh? Doesn't matter now...does it?
>
> Yes, it most certainly does. It is not too late to punish the murderers.
> Legally even.
The true 'murders' are dead. Only thing is, they committed
suicide-by-government, while couching their actions in false religious
dogma. At the most, government agents might be considered
unwilling/unwitting accessories to the deaths, but you'll need to see my
post to Larry for more on that.
"Who is responsible for the deaths? This question has as many answers are
there are investigators into the tragedy. It is our belief that the
responsibility should be divided among:
-David Koresh for:
--assembling a large cache of weapons,
--exciting his followers into a fever pitch anticipating the end of the world
being unable to communicate his beliefs and intents clearly to outsiders,
refusing to submit to a government warrant
-The Branch Davidians memberhship generally for staying at Waco (and keeping
their children there) in spite of all of the warning signs that they were
members of a destructive, doomsday cult
-Some of the experts hired by the FBI who were apparently so unaware of the
dynamics of doomsday cults and of the Branch Davidian beliefs and practices
that they advised the FBI to take aggressive action, assuring them that the
possibility of resistance and of mass suicide was low
-The anti-cult movement for having created a paranoia in the U.S. against
new religious movements. This fear has generated intolerance of
unconventional religious groups which in turn has legitimized violent
government intervention against "cults."
-The Baylor College of Medicine for using intensive and improper
interrogation on Branch Davidian children. The result was disclosure by the
children of stories of sexual and physical abuse which never happened. Those
false disclosures had a major influence over Attorney General Janet Reno
when she authorized the attack.
-The FBI for:
--believing the wrong "experts" in the presence of contradictory
recommendations.
--for not allowing two theologians access to Koresh.
--for total lack of understanding of Koresh's message; it was discounted as
"Bible babble" by one agent. Another agent thought that the 7 seals were sea
creatures. A careful study of his teachings would show that they formed a
consistent interpretation of the Bible."
> > McVeigh could have kept his actions peaceful...instead he caused another
> > tragedy, and tragedy + tragedy = 0.
>
> I certainly agree that he shouldn't have done what he did. But I'm not
> convinced that peace is always the way to go.
Then stay the hell away from me and mine. I don't want to be within a
hundred miles of you when you decide it is your time to make a statement.
> > Should he have been executed? It's the
> > law of the land...he knew that before he started planning the bombing. The
> > Branch Davidians knew the laws also. They made their choices, and you can't
> > place the blame for that on anyone but them.
>
> Horseshi<gag, muffle, muffle>!
Cows do too, but they don't brag.
> They didn't do anything wrong.
That is not/was not the consensus of our duly elected/appointed government.
They are the only government we have in place, and it will be a long time
before there is a major change in that.
"Events from the FBI perspective
They looked upon Koresh as a deranged individual. He believed himself to be
Jesus Christ. They knew that he had a huge arsenal of illegal weapons. They
genuinely believed that he sexually and physically abused children. Some
believed that he was producing illegal drugs. They were totally insensitive
to the religious nature of the conflict, and treated the standoff as a
conventional hostage situation. They discounted Koresh's obsession with the
7 seals, and interpreted it as an indication that he was psychotic. They
assumed that he was lying when he said that he was waiting for a revelation
from God with instructions how to proceed. He said that he had received the
revelation, to write about the seven seals and then give himself up. The FBI
interpreted it as simply another delaying tactic. Seeing no end to the
standoff, having received an "expert" opinion that mass suicide or murder
was unlikely, and being concerned about the fate of the children in the
compound, they decided to risk mass suicide and killing. They attacked with
tear gas."
You are, of course, more than welcome to your own beliefs and opinions. You
can even sit in a shack in the woods plotting whatever violence you refer to
above. However, 1) again, stay the hell away from me and my family when you
decide to do whatever it may be, and 2) don't be overly surprised when the
government agents come to get you. After all, that's what they are there
for. To protect me and my family from people who would harm us.
Matt
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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| I have to dig into Matt's last post and this one in more depth... right now i have time only to say one thing... (...) This seems to be a GREAT site, thanks for digging it up, KoC (King of Cites.. er, maybe that's not the best acronym... how about (...) (23 years ago, 17-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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| (...) It is an interesting read. Thanks for the URL. (...) You have quite an attitude about this, don't you? Well, I don't have proof. What I have is hundreds of conversations on the matter and an overall impression that across demographics, most (...) (23 years ago, 17-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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| (...) In a sense? A bunch of people died for no good reason and most Americans don't even care! It is way more than tragic "in a sense." (...) The kids are not the only tragedy. The adults are too. As is the fact that such a miscarriage of justice (...) (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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