Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:46:40 GMT
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Viewed:
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625 times
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You appear to view human rights a luxury which is great if it can be
afforded economically. I view them as being rather more fundamental than
that. As I said before, Turkey will not get in the EU until it gets itself
in order.
Scott A
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
>
>
> Scott A wrote:
> > http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/2e50a33b90820418802568f200552979?OpenDocument
> >
> > It counts 4500 civilian deaths.
>
>
> One liner, huh? It says 4500 yes.
>
> "Background
> Armed conflict between Turkish security forces and the PKK has continued
> since 1984 in the southeast of Turkey, which is mainly inhabited by
> Kurds.
> Both sides were responsible for human rights abuses during the conflict,
> in
> which an estimated 4,500 civilians were killed, around 3,000 settlements
> evacuated or burned down and up to three million people internally
> displaced."
>
> And if you read it again, but not with your butt, you see that this 4500
> is the number of the civilian people been killed during the conflict.
> Which means this unneeded conflict, motivated and encouraged by some
> people (I think you are thinking you are not so familiar with them but I
> think you are really wrong) caused death of 29000 (according to your
> source, more than 35000 according to mine) people, of which 4500 were
> civilians. Civilians? make that 30000. Our army based on conscription
> and the soldiers who died there were also civilians along their whole
> lives except the last 18 months of it at most. And the PKK participants
> were civilians before they gone for their cause. I know very well what
> The Turkish Army is (and not very proud of it, I was part of it for 16
> months). A bunch of people with horse angle of view and constructed from
> amateur men mostly, having their own lives sometime in the very recent
> past and wishing to turn back to it after 6/16/18 months. And I know
> what the PKK is. An extremely terrorist and violent group which kills
> civilians easily and heartlessly.
>
> I know armed forces staff tortured the civilians because they support
> PKK. I know PKK groups executed whole villages because they support
> Turkish Republic. I know PKK militia disguised as Turkish Armed Forces,
> and executed civilians because people helped them while they were in TAF
> coveralls. I know TAF personnel tortured them since civilians helped
> while they were disguised as PKK militants.
>
> You are talking about a subject not only you don't know anything about,
> but you even can't imagine anything about. You talking about some very
> meaningless statistics, and making them unsupposedly more meaningless,
> without any clue about the emotions involved. Without realizing the
> affects of the conflict, without realizing that you owe your comfortable
> and safe seat to the money that your pretty dear country and their other
> civilized and respecting human rights kind of allies making by selling
> weapons to both sides.
>
> And what do you think you would get from an undeveloped third world
> country like Turkey after initiating the scum? The justice that you
> can't get even from your "developed and respecting human rights" kind of
> country and its likes? You will wait till the end I presume. You are
> just talking about things, but I'm living my life with them. You are
> just comparing some selected things with your own comfortable and safe
> seat's standards, but don't have any clue about the real standards here,
> in a third world country.
>
> And you said in another response that you know your history and don't
> proud of it but all of it was in the past. Can you really make yourself
> believing that this stupid way of thinking? Do you know anything about
> the history involving Anatolia at the beginning of the century? Here are
> some clues.
>
> After the WWI, your country and allies won the war, and start invading
> Anatolia, which was our homeland for 900 years. They shared the land and
> physically invade almost all of it. West Turkey is occupied by Greek
> forces (They came to the Izmir harbor under the big brothership of
> British battle cruisers), south Anatolia invaded by Italian forces,
> south east Anatolia invaded by the French forces and Istanbul by British
> forces. They also decided that there should be an Armenia in north east
> Anatolia and a Kurdistan in other part of south east. Far east of the
> land given to Russia.
>
> Britain and US tried to bribe Kurdish people by making promises about
> the foundation of Kurdistan in Anatolia and demanded them to fight
> against Mustafa Kemal and his forces. But, you know what? They chose to
> fight against the invaders side by side with Turkish forces. At the end?
> We kicked all of the invaders out, all together.
>
> So why there is a Kurdish/Turkish conflict like that? Again, just after
> the conclusion of our liberty war in 1922, British government provoked a
> Kurdish movement in Musul, since they don't want to give us this land,
> rich of petroleum, which was also inside our national borders. This was
> the first conflict between Turkish and Kurdish people in history, who
> lived together in the same piece of land over 900 years.
>
> "Hey, they were all in the past" huh? My a..!.. You still talking about
> Phalestanian/Israeli conflict, too, but not talking about the actions of
> your pretty dear government" "in the past" that initiated the subject
> first of all. I'm pretty happy that UK is now not a very big (not able
> to, I believe) participant of the world politics as before.
>
> About other subjects that your article mentioned:
>
> "Unfair trial of Abdullah Ocalan"
>
> My a..! All of it was in front of all the media force you can find
> around the world, I watched almost all of them from our and world TV
> channels. Do you?
>
> "He can't allowed to defend himself in person"
>
> My a..! He had every means to defend himself, much much more than an
> average Turkish citizen that being tried. And he used it sparsely. I
> watched it. Do you?
>
> "His lawyers attacked and tortured by people and security forces"
>
> My a..! Yes. bystanders are shouting with full force to them (hey, some
> bystanders killed some Leeds fanatics, you remember? Do you know there
> is no upper limit to fanatisizm here in Turkey, and fanatics are
> generally people of nothing to lose including their lives?) but
> attacking them? There was nothing like that. All the thing was under
> very strict security (which I found amusing knowing our lack of ability
> to plan and execute anything seriously) that nothing could have happened
> like that. I watched it. Do you?
>
> "Kurdistan Workers Party Armed Opposition Group"
>
> My a..! Workers with RGG-7s, Cannas', Kalashnikovs, AA guns, heavy
> mortars, Stingers and the like, anti tank mines. I saw many video films
> taken by the group themselves, showing their "activities" in detail,
> showing Abdullah Ocalan personally. And no, we don't have Industrial
> Light&Magic labs here in Turkey. They are terrorists and I know it. I
> watched it. Do you?
>
> "Leader of Kurdistan Workers Party Armed Opposition Group"
>
> My a..! Do you know that his native language is Turkish, and he still
> can't talk in Kurdish after 15 years of his "leadership"? I know it. Do
> you?
>
> For the other parts of the article, although its extreme tries to
> highlight Kurdish portion of the cases, they mostly true. Yes, Turkish
> Police is nasty, almost everytime, and against almost everyone. Even I
> have bruises on top of my had, which are not so sweet memories of a
> parade that I participate during University years. They don't
> discriminate people when torturing them. Yes, we have stupid and
> extremely restricting laws that makes judges to charge writers,
> journalists and others just for writing/speaking and even thinking. But
> I know before the military interruption in 1980, we had a very nice and
> civil mother law, which was changed after the interruption with a much
> more restricting and stupid one. But who initiated and supported this
> military interruption? Do you believe any commanding staff in Turkey can
> plan and execute such a thing without the help and encouraging support
> from our biggest ally?
>
> Heh... Just sit in your conformable and safe seat and talk, and play the
> three monkies when it comes to the relation between your seat and my
> suffering.
>
> Selçuk
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) You are completely clueless again. I neither said nor mean anything like that. All I tried to explain is was you are not defending human rights, you are just musterbating. Continue, though. It is quite relieving I believe. And for the EU issue (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) One liner, huh? It says 4500 yes. "Background Armed conflict between Turkish security forces and the PKK has continued since 1984 in the southeast of Turkey, which is mainly inhabited by Kurds. Both sides were responsible for human rights (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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