Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:47:41 GMT
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Viewed:
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784 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> You appear to view human rights a luxury which is great if it can be
> afforded economically. I view them as being rather more fundamental than
> that. As I said before, Turkey will not get in the EU until it gets itself
> in order.
>
> Scott A
You are completely clueless again. I neither said nor mean anything like
that. All I tried to explain is was you are not defending human rights, you
are just musterbating. Continue, though. It is quite relieving I believe.
And for the EU issue read again (you really seem to be not understanding
anything at the first time):
"And believe me, if your dearest country and its allies see it as a
profitable thing, whether there is a Kurdish/Cyprus/Agean Sea/whatever
you call problem exist or not, we will be part of your very dear union,
and believe me, you won't have any ways to "vote" about it. Not that I
believe putting us inside EU is profitable from any of the participant
countries right now."
Selçuk
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> >
> >
> > Scott A wrote:
> > > http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/2e50a33b90820418802568f200552979?OpenDocument
> > >
> > > It counts 4500 civilian deaths.
> >
> >
> > One liner, huh? It says 4500 yes.
> >
> > "Background
> > Armed conflict between Turkish security forces and the PKK has continued
> > since 1984 in the southeast of Turkey, which is mainly inhabited by
> > Kurds.
> > Both sides were responsible for human rights abuses during the conflict,
> > in
> > which an estimated 4,500 civilians were killed, around 3,000 settlements
> > evacuated or burned down and up to three million people internally
> > displaced."
> >
> > And if you read it again, but not with your butt, you see that this 4500
> > is the number of the civilian people been killed during the conflict.
> > Which means this unneeded conflict, motivated and encouraged by some
> > people (I think you are thinking you are not so familiar with them but I
> > think you are really wrong) caused death of 29000 (according to your
> > source, more than 35000 according to mine) people, of which 4500 were
> > civilians. Civilians? make that 30000. Our army based on conscription
> > and the soldiers who died there were also civilians along their whole
> > lives except the last 18 months of it at most. And the PKK participants
> > were civilians before they gone for their cause. I know very well what
> > The Turkish Army is (and not very proud of it, I was part of it for 16
> > months). A bunch of people with horse angle of view and constructed from
> > amateur men mostly, having their own lives sometime in the very recent
> > past and wishing to turn back to it after 6/16/18 months. And I know
> > what the PKK is. An extremely terrorist and violent group which kills
> > civilians easily and heartlessly.
> >
> > I know armed forces staff tortured the civilians because they support
> > PKK. I know PKK groups executed whole villages because they support
> > Turkish Republic. I know PKK militia disguised as Turkish Armed Forces,
> > and executed civilians because people helped them while they were in TAF
> > coveralls. I know TAF personnel tortured them since civilians helped
> > while they were disguised as PKK militants.
> >
> > You are talking about a subject not only you don't know anything about,
> > but you even can't imagine anything about. You talking about some very
> > meaningless statistics, and making them unsupposedly more meaningless,
> > without any clue about the emotions involved. Without realizing the
> > affects of the conflict, without realizing that you owe your comfortable
> > and safe seat to the money that your pretty dear country and their other
> > civilized and respecting human rights kind of allies making by selling
> > weapons to both sides.
> >
> > And what do you think you would get from an undeveloped third world
> > country like Turkey after initiating the scum? The justice that you
> > can't get even from your "developed and respecting human rights" kind of
> > country and its likes? You will wait till the end I presume. You are
> > just talking about things, but I'm living my life with them. You are
> > just comparing some selected things with your own comfortable and safe
> > seat's standards, but don't have any clue about the real standards here,
> > in a third world country.
> >
> > And you said in another response that you know your history and don't
> > proud of it but all of it was in the past. Can you really make yourself
> > believing that this stupid way of thinking? Do you know anything about
> > the history involving Anatolia at the beginning of the century? Here are
> > some clues.
> >
> > After the WWI, your country and allies won the war, and start invading
> > Anatolia, which was our homeland for 900 years. They shared the land and
> > physically invade almost all of it. West Turkey is occupied by Greek
> > forces (They came to the Izmir harbor under the big brothership of
> > British battle cruisers), south Anatolia invaded by Italian forces,
> > south east Anatolia invaded by the French forces and Istanbul by British
> > forces. They also decided that there should be an Armenia in north east
> > Anatolia and a Kurdistan in other part of south east. Far east of the
> > land given to Russia.
> >
> > Britain and US tried to bribe Kurdish people by making promises about
> > the foundation of Kurdistan in Anatolia and demanded them to fight
> > against Mustafa Kemal and his forces. But, you know what? They chose to
> > fight against the invaders side by side with Turkish forces. At the end?
> > We kicked all of the invaders out, all together.
> >
> > So why there is a Kurdish/Turkish conflict like that? Again, just after
> > the conclusion of our liberty war in 1922, British government provoked a
> > Kurdish movement in Musul, since they don't want to give us this land,
> > rich of petroleum, which was also inside our national borders. This was
> > the first conflict between Turkish and Kurdish people in history, who
> > lived together in the same piece of land over 900 years.
> >
> > "Hey, they were all in the past" huh? My a..!.. You still talking about
> > Phalestanian/Israeli conflict, too, but not talking about the actions of
> > your pretty dear government" "in the past" that initiated the subject
> > first of all. I'm pretty happy that UK is now not a very big (not able
> > to, I believe) participant of the world politics as before.
> >
> > About other subjects that your article mentioned:
> >
> > "Unfair trial of Abdullah Ocalan"
> >
> > My a..! All of it was in front of all the media force you can find
> > around the world, I watched almost all of them from our and world TV
> > channels. Do you?
> >
> > "He can't allowed to defend himself in person"
> >
> > My a..! He had every means to defend himself, much much more than an
> > average Turkish citizen that being tried. And he used it sparsely. I
> > watched it. Do you?
> >
> > "His lawyers attacked and tortured by people and security forces"
> >
> > My a..! Yes. bystanders are shouting with full force to them (hey, some
> > bystanders killed some Leeds fanatics, you remember? Do you know there
> > is no upper limit to fanatisizm here in Turkey, and fanatics are
> > generally people of nothing to lose including their lives?) but
> > attacking them? There was nothing like that. All the thing was under
> > very strict security (which I found amusing knowing our lack of ability
> > to plan and execute anything seriously) that nothing could have happened
> > like that. I watched it. Do you?
> >
> > "Kurdistan Workers Party Armed Opposition Group"
> >
> > My a..! Workers with RGG-7s, Cannas', Kalashnikovs, AA guns, heavy
> > mortars, Stingers and the like, anti tank mines. I saw many video films
> > taken by the group themselves, showing their "activities" in detail,
> > showing Abdullah Ocalan personally. And no, we don't have Industrial
> > Light&Magic labs here in Turkey. They are terrorists and I know it. I
> > watched it. Do you?
> >
> > "Leader of Kurdistan Workers Party Armed Opposition Group"
> >
> > My a..! Do you know that his native language is Turkish, and he still
> > can't talk in Kurdish after 15 years of his "leadership"? I know it. Do
> > you?
> >
> > For the other parts of the article, although its extreme tries to
> > highlight Kurdish portion of the cases, they mostly true. Yes, Turkish
> > Police is nasty, almost everytime, and against almost everyone. Even I
> > have bruises on top of my had, which are not so sweet memories of a
> > parade that I participate during University years. They don't
> > discriminate people when torturing them. Yes, we have stupid and
> > extremely restricting laws that makes judges to charge writers,
> > journalists and others just for writing/speaking and even thinking. But
> > I know before the military interruption in 1980, we had a very nice and
> > civil mother law, which was changed after the interruption with a much
> > more restricting and stupid one. But who initiated and supported this
> > military interruption? Do you believe any commanding staff in Turkey can
> > plan and execute such a thing without the help and encouraging support
> > from our biggest ally?
> >
> > Heh... Just sit in your conformable and safe seat and talk, and play the
> > three monkies when it comes to the relation between your seat and my
> > suffering.
> >
> > Selçuk
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Message has 1 Reply:
Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| You appear to view human rights a luxury which is great if it can be afforded economically. I view them as being rather more fundamental than that. As I said before, Turkey will not get in the EU until it gets itself in order. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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