Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:58:36 GMT
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Reply-To:
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ssgore@superonline.+ihatespam+com
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Viewed:
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750 times
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Scott A wrote:
> http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/2e50a33b90820418802568f200552979?OpenDocument
>
> It counts 4500 civilian deaths.
One liner, huh? It says 4500 yes.
"Background
Armed conflict between Turkish security forces and the PKK has continued
since 1984 in the southeast of Turkey, which is mainly inhabited by
Kurds.
Both sides were responsible for human rights abuses during the conflict,
in
which an estimated 4,500 civilians were killed, around 3,000 settlements
evacuated or burned down and up to three million people internally
displaced."
And if you read it again, but not with your butt, you see that this 4500
is the number of the civilian people been killed during the conflict.
Which means this unneeded conflict, motivated and encouraged by some
people (I think you are thinking you are not so familiar with them but I
think you are really wrong) caused death of 29000 (according to your
source, more than 35000 according to mine) people, of which 4500 were
civilians. Civilians? make that 30000. Our army based on conscription
and the soldiers who died there were also civilians along their whole
lives except the last 18 months of it at most. And the PKK participants
were civilians before they gone for their cause. I know very well what
The Turkish Army is (and not very proud of it, I was part of it for 16
months). A bunch of people with horse angle of view and constructed from
amateur men mostly, having their own lives sometime in the very recent
past and wishing to turn back to it after 6/16/18 months. And I know
what the PKK is. An extremely terrorist and violent group which kills
civilians easily and heartlessly.
I know armed forces staff tortured the civilians because they support
PKK. I know PKK groups executed whole villages because they support
Turkish Republic. I know PKK militia disguised as Turkish Armed Forces,
and executed civilians because people helped them while they were in TAF
coveralls. I know TAF personnel tortured them since civilians helped
while they were disguised as PKK militants.
You are talking about a subject not only you don't know anything about,
but you even can't imagine anything about. You talking about some very
meaningless statistics, and making them unsupposedly more meaningless,
without any clue about the emotions involved. Without realizing the
affects of the conflict, without realizing that you owe your comfortable
and safe seat to the money that your pretty dear country and their other
civilized and respecting human rights kind of allies making by selling
weapons to both sides.
And what do you think you would get from an undeveloped third world
country like Turkey after initiating the scum? The justice that you
can't get even from your "developed and respecting human rights" kind of
country and its likes? You will wait till the end I presume. You are
just talking about things, but I'm living my life with them. You are
just comparing some selected things with your own comfortable and safe
seat's standards, but don't have any clue about the real standards here,
in a third world country.
And you said in another response that you know your history and don't
proud of it but all of it was in the past. Can you really make yourself
believing that this stupid way of thinking? Do you know anything about
the history involving Anatolia at the beginning of the century? Here are
some clues.
After the WWI, your country and allies won the war, and start invading
Anatolia, which was our homeland for 900 years. They shared the land and
physically invade almost all of it. West Turkey is occupied by Greek
forces (They came to the Izmir harbor under the big brothership of
British battle cruisers), south Anatolia invaded by Italian forces,
south east Anatolia invaded by the French forces and Istanbul by British
forces. They also decided that there should be an Armenia in north east
Anatolia and a Kurdistan in other part of south east. Far east of the
land given to Russia.
Britain and US tried to bribe Kurdish people by making promises about
the foundation of Kurdistan in Anatolia and demanded them to fight
against Mustafa Kemal and his forces. But, you know what? They chose to
fight against the invaders side by side with Turkish forces. At the end?
We kicked all of the invaders out, all together.
So why there is a Kurdish/Turkish conflict like that? Again, just after
the conclusion of our liberty war in 1922, British government provoked a
Kurdish movement in Musul, since they don't want to give us this land,
rich of petroleum, which was also inside our national borders. This was
the first conflict between Turkish and Kurdish people in history, who
lived together in the same piece of land over 900 years.
"Hey, they were all in the past" huh? My a..!.. You still talking about
Phalestanian/Israeli conflict, too, but not talking about the actions of
your pretty dear government" "in the past" that initiated the subject
first of all. I'm pretty happy that UK is now not a very big (not able
to, I believe) participant of the world politics as before.
About other subjects that your article mentioned:
"Unfair trial of Abdullah Ocalan"
My a..! All of it was in front of all the media force you can find
around the world, I watched almost all of them from our and world TV
channels. Do you?
"He can't allowed to defend himself in person"
My a..! He had every means to defend himself, much much more than an
average Turkish citizen that being tried. And he used it sparsely. I
watched it. Do you?
"His lawyers attacked and tortured by people and security forces"
My a..! Yes. bystanders are shouting with full force to them (hey, some
bystanders killed some Leeds fanatics, you remember? Do you know there
is no upper limit to fanatisizm here in Turkey, and fanatics are
generally people of nothing to lose including their lives?) but
attacking them? There was nothing like that. All the thing was under
very strict security (which I found amusing knowing our lack of ability
to plan and execute anything seriously) that nothing could have happened
like that. I watched it. Do you?
"Kurdistan Workers Party Armed Opposition Group"
My a..! Workers with RGG-7s, Cannas', Kalashnikovs, AA guns, heavy
mortars, Stingers and the like, anti tank mines. I saw many video films
taken by the group themselves, showing their "activities" in detail,
showing Abdullah Ocalan personally. And no, we don't have Industrial
Light&Magic labs here in Turkey. They are terrorists and I know it. I
watched it. Do you?
"Leader of Kurdistan Workers Party Armed Opposition Group"
My a..! Do you know that his native language is Turkish, and he still
can't talk in Kurdish after 15 years of his "leadership"? I know it. Do
you?
For the other parts of the article, although its extreme tries to
highlight Kurdish portion of the cases, they mostly true. Yes, Turkish
Police is nasty, almost everytime, and against almost everyone. Even I
have bruises on top of my had, which are not so sweet memories of a
parade that I participate during University years. They don't
discriminate people when torturing them. Yes, we have stupid and
extremely restricting laws that makes judges to charge writers,
journalists and others just for writing/speaking and even thinking. But
I know before the military interruption in 1980, we had a very nice and
civil mother law, which was changed after the interruption with a much
more restricting and stupid one. But who initiated and supported this
military interruption? Do you believe any commanding staff in Turkey can
plan and execute such a thing without the help and encouraging support
from our biggest ally?
Heh... Just sit in your conformable and safe seat and talk, and play the
three monkies when it comes to the relation between your seat and my
suffering.
Selçuk
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| You appear to view human rights a luxury which is great if it can be afforded economically. I view them as being rather more fundamental than that. As I said before, Turkey will not get in the EU until it gets itself in order. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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