Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:27:50 GMT
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Viewed:
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571 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
>
>
> Scott A wrote:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > > Scott A wrote:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > > > > Scott A wrote:
>
> > > > The differnce is that the public in the UK expect even convicted murderers
> > > > to be treated as humans... not murdered raped or tortured. Sure, the police
> > > > do not always do it. Sure there have been mistakes. But the public expects
> > > > it... or at least I do.
> > >
> > > So at least you already got the main idea, partially..:-) And believe
> > > me, public DOES NOT always want this kind of perfect humanity if enough
> > > encourage and motivation is a given. History is full of this.
> >
> > You have a government which systematically abuses human rights and as taken
> > part in the killing of ~6000 civilians in the war you describe. Who voted
> > for them?
>
> 6000 civilians? You are sure right? And systematically?..Wow..You
> enlightened me..:-) Doc knows my country better than me..:-) I know
> Turkey has the worst kind of scum as a government for decades but only
> one thing that I'm sure of exists, They cannot plan, they cannot do
> anything systematically. And for the human right abuses, do you "really"
> know anything about that? Our government does not discriminate any
> portion of the population. They mostly abuses all of them equally..:-)
> We are living in a third world country you genius!..
>
> And no. I don't vote for them. But you really believe that votes can
> make a difference? not in theory, but in practice?
See:
http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/2e50a33b90820418802568f200552979?OpenDocument
It counts 4500 civilian deaths.
Scott A
>
> > > War is slime. And when covered with slime, it is always difficult
> > > sorting the things out. The Kurdish thing here in south eastern Turkey
> > > was/is a WAR. Between fully terrorist group PKK and Turkish Armed
> > > Forces. It is a war that consumed 40.000 lives along its duration of
> > > fifteen years, from both sides (do not forget to consider both "sides"
> > > are citizens of Turkish Republic).
> > >
> > > So what is the cause of the slime here? Is any illegal/rebel
> > > organization can rise to power without any motivation and support? Even
> > > assuming the motivation comes from lower living standards of the whole
> > > southern part of the Turkey, who are those supporters? Who wanted a
> > > country to consume its young lives (from both sides) and future of the
> > > others (could you realize the amount of money that devoted to a war
> > > 15-year-long? Could you realize the importance of that amount for a
> > > country like Turkey?)? Who supplied NATO inventory weapons like stinger
> > > AA missiles to the group? How can they afford such weapons, and other
> > > more trivial ones, and all the logistics (I'm talking about a full scale
> > > guerilla army of thousands)? Who has the most profit here?
> >
> > The IRA has weapons UK, USA and eastern Europe. Bizarrely, some of the
> > weapons from the USA were sent to NI via regular mail.
>
> I think you again got the idea..:-)
>
> > > AND, do you really know anything that worth knowing, about the Kurdish
> > > problem here, of its (very recent, less than a hundred years) history?
> >
> > I know about the Ilisu dam, will it not make 15000 kurds homless?
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1026000/1026204.stm
>
> Kurds? A dam being built, and it make Kurdish people being homeless?.
> You don't have any clue about the life here in Turkey. There is no
> "Kurdish only/Turkish only" type of large area settlements here in
> Turkey. I think you are more clueless than the article you given to me,
> since it says "15000 people" and "dozens of Kurdish towns" but not
> "15000 kurds". The article again somehow clueless though, since it
> mentions 15000 future homeless (I'm sure there are both Kurdish and
> Turkish people in it, both citizens of Turkish Republic) but it
> purposefully highlights dozens of "kurdish towns" being flooded (in an
> average village in south eastern Turkey, only several hundred people
> lives, and dozens of them does not make 15000). It is not a new thing.
> Dams are always being built for the last century, and many many villages
> being flooded. I can believe that the location of the dam chosen poorly
> from the environmental point of view, and I can really believe that this
> dam is not necessary but being projected just for the individual profits
> of some scums calling themselves as politicians, BUT are you really
> imagining that Turkish Government will build a dam to flood Kurdish
> villages? Bahhh. Our government is incapable of planning a thing like
> that, and they do not plan such a thing without any individual profit.
>
> > >
> > > There is not a thing like "good war/honorable war" existing on earth,
> > > and it never existed. Go after who crated all this hassle, if you really
> > > prefer to have a point. Trying to nitpick dirtier part of a total dirt
> > > is just... gabble.
> >
> > The fact is that until Turkey sorts this out it will never be part of the EU.
> >
> > Scott A
>
>
> Being part of EU is not my very urgent problem. Right now, I'm just
> trying to survive, from the recent collapse of Turkish Economy(!). So
> bet I care much of it..:-)
>
> And believe me, if your dearest country and its allies see it as a
> profitable thing, whether there is a Kurdish/Cyprus/Agean Sea/whatever
> you call problem exist or not, we will be part of your very dear union,
> and believe me, you won't have any ways to "vote" about it. Not that I
> believe putting us inside EU is profitable from any of the participant
> countries right now.
>
> Do you really believe that any government cares about the well fare of
> any kind of human being? Without any real profit behind? I think this is
> a syndrome of living in a prosperous and rich country (sitting in a
> comfortable and safe seat syndrome) where the governors take precautions
> to not make their little plays obvious. In a third world country, they
> don't even try to make them secret so you can easily see through it.
>
> Again you are very dare while living in a country with the most ugly
> history on earth. You owe your comfortable and safe seat to this well
> known history. Not that I don't want to be in place of you.
>
> Selçuk
>
> > > And I feel that I must remind you, I'm not talking about a subject here
> > > that I'm watching easily from my TV, sitting in my comfortable and SAFE
> > > seat. I was partially inside of it (Turkish army based on conscription,
> > > might be you know) and I'm a person who lives in his "safe" town, which
> > > is quite familiar with bombs gone off in public places.
> > >
> > > Selçuk
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) You're referring to this bit, I trust: "Both sides were responsible for human rights abuses during the conflict, in which an estimated 4,500 civilians were killed, around 3,000 settlements evacuated or burned down and up to three million (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) One liner, huh? It says 4500 yes. "Background Armed conflict between Turkish security forces and the PKK has continued since 1984 in the southeast of Turkey, which is mainly inhabited by Kurds. Both sides were responsible for human rights (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) 6000 civilians? You are sure right? And systematically?..Wow..You enlightened me..:-) Doc knows my country better than me..:-) I know Turkey has the worst kind of scum as a government for decades but only one thing that I'm sure of exists, (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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