Subject:
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Lugnet can always grow; it's up to us to make it happen.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.general
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Date:
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Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:31:01 GMT
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In lugnet.general, Joel Kuester writes:
> In lugnet.general, Nick Crocco writes:
> > Yes, I miss the old LUGNET.
> > I miss people actually replying to a post. Two+ years ago, when I first
> > found out about Lugnet, every post I made was replied to numerous times by
> > friendly people just making small talk, telling me how much they enjoy my
> > creations, or even constructive criticism. Now, it seems that the only
> > extraordinary posts get recognition.
>
> Hi, this topic has crossed my mind a few times in the last year or so, but I
> guess I have a slightly more accepting view of it. I don't think that the
> changes that have happened to Lugnet could have been avoided.
I don't either--this was really an incredibly open forum,
the likes of which I only see on 'blogs and Portal of Evil
anymore (and trust me, you don't ever want this to become
either of those things). The gateway Todd put in place is
really quite minor.
That said, yes, I can see Nick's point--but things don't
look quite so bleak to me.
> I started like many of us did, on RTL. I have been reading Lugnet pretty
> much from the first couple months, and I started posting a few months after
> that.
> I believe that a lot of the enthusiasm that was here early-on was due mainly
> to the fact that the whole concept was still fresh. Lugnet was (and still
> is) in many respects a brand new and powerful way for all of us to get
> together and share our love and talent for building with Lego Bricks.
In many respects? In ALL respects. Frankly, I wouldn't
even have gone so far in the hobby without the talent and
the camaraderie I've gotten here. As for freshness, I'm
30, freshness doesn't excite me anymore. *creak*
> For most of us, I think there was an initial surprise that not only were
> there others out there that still enjoyed Lego as an adult hobby, but that a
> place like Lugnet existed. When I first found it, it had the aura of a hip,
> underground club for the Lego elite. The truly great thing about it was the
> fact that the people were (almost universally) friendly, helpful, and
> supportive of each other. I had belonged to many on-line groups in the
> past, and they were all fraught with social politics, rudeness, and a
> get-it-while-you-can sort of aggressiveness.
We still have a certain amount of anonymity here. I've got
to say that, for a truly constructive hobby, we have a really
stunning following--people feel free enough to open up because
it's the Internet, but safe enough because we're generally a
pretty good group. I've seen nasty, nasty flamewars, and even
in .debate what goes on here is G-rated tame.
Of course, we atl fossils are still here because we've got
nowhere else to go, we're social misfits, super megageeks,
graduate students, etc etc etc ;)
> Lugnet was truly a special place unlike any other.
>
> I believe it still is; it has just matured.
Joel, this is brilliantly and simply put. I agree wholeheartedly.
> Over time, the new car smell has faded, but the vehicle still works great!
My car never smelled like the sweet, sweet LEGO brick.
(Ooooh, I think I have a new .sig!)
> The initial energy and shock at the newness of it all has indeed faded, but
> only slightly... I still check in at least 2 or 3 times a week to find great
> and exciting MOCs from around the world, and news directly from TLC's mouth.
Because I have a DSL line and I'm an information sponge, I'm
here four or five times a day--and I almost always find something
of interest to look at, even if I don't bother to post.
> A few unfortunate events have happened to Lugnet that have forced the admins
> to start the posting verification, and with increased traffic, they decided
> to reorganize the front page. I actually think both of these changes have
> been improvements. I would have to count myself in the group that dislikes
> pointless "me too" posts. If you want to tell someone you like their
> construction, but you have nothing to add to the conversation, just send
> them a friendly email. I have been on both sides of this, sending and
> receiving, and I can tell you its nicer to get a more personal comment in
> the inbox, than a "me too" post.
> Of course, there are those who are attention seekers above all else, and
> they will continue to abuse cross-posting and such... does it bother me?
> Not really, I think most of us can tag these types pretty easy and ignore them.
Yep. Others who have said that crossposting excessively is OK
because they're sharing with more people haven't seen what it
leads to--.auction posts EVERYWHERE. Oi vey, I remember that.
And, of course, it's OK as long as it's you doing it, but when
you have to wade through flotsam to see what you're subscribing
to see, it's really obnoxious and thoughtless. But everyone's
allowed a slip here and there, and if you can make great cross-
theme MOCs, a real challenge, by all means post everywhere it's
relevant!
> I spent a long time writing and
> > creating objects that the fellow community would enjoy, and nobody would
> > reply. Not even a quick nice job. The reason I post here in the first place
> > was to hear the constructive criticism and comments. But without that,
> > what's the reason?
>
> I am not familiar with your creations, so please don't take this as a
> personal comment, but most of the posts I have seen on Lugnet that recieved
> no comment usually fall into a couple categories:
>
> 1. bad MOCs. (snip)
> 2. bad Nettiquette. (snip)
> 3. Bad presentation/communication. (snip)
I can add a couple of specific peeves:
4. "I just added three more bricks, come see"--laborious. Show us
when it's done, when it's halfway, or at some other major watershed!
5. "Here's the MOC link, and three hundred confusing paragraphs explaining
how I built it, what it means, and how I choose canteloupe at the Stop
n' Shop, with 42,335 questions, PLMKWYT!" Daunting. As with 3. above,
let your presentation speak volumes for you! One of my favorite
sites ever was Todd Trotter's "Sighthound Recon" MOC-site; another
is the recently-updated Marsbase (which I haven't commented on yet,
sorry!). One uses graphics judiciously to speak to the viewer;
the other has a lot of text, but it's compartmentalized, not a
stream-of-consciousness ramble. I run at the keyboard worse than
most around here, but I hope that outside of .debate I can stay
on-topic enough that people don't run screaming from my posts.
> > seems like Lugnet has lost it's focus. I don't really like the idea of how
> > the most 'popular' links are shown on the left of the page. Every topic is
> > equally important, plus, half the fun of Lugnet is exploring around and
> > finding the interesting topics. Besides, heated topics/info is usually in
> > the newly written box often, making it easier to find.
>
> I have to disagree here, not every topic is equally important.
>
> I don't want to wade through 15 posts about an Australian get-together if I
> am trying to find out about the new 2002 catalog. Lugnet is
> compartmentalized, and I like it that way. Lugnet has the popular links on
> the frontpage for a reason, and I prefer it the way it is.
Whoa, whoa there, whoa. Australia is the most important place
on Earth. Watch your step, or they'll send the koala koammandos
after you. :)
In all seriousness, I agree. If you use the web interface and
log in as a member, you can rate the posts--any member can--and
the regulars tend to be the best judges of LEGO-related content.
They've usually been around for a while, they've made a commitment
(however small) in becoming a member, and they spend more time
on the average per day around here. I'm not arguing, btw, that
non-members don't contribute, or that they should be restricted
from participating--posting permission is still free as the air
you breathe, unlike a lot of places that charge $5 a month for
the privilege of merely reading their fora.
> There are still plently of heated topics and debates to find, and they don't
> always show up on the popular list.
There's also a "more highlights" link on that page. Did you
see it? Anything that someone's flagged shows up on there,
somewhere.
> > I miss the old "Cool Lego Site of the Week." Remember when winning the Cool
> > Lego Site of the Week was something special? I do. Now it seems like
> > everybody and their room-mates have won one. There are only so many Lego
> > sites (yes, there are a lot, but only so many) and giving out and award a
> > week, everyone will eventually have one. Many Cool Lego Site of the Month?
>
> It seems to me that you are complaining that you miss something that has not
> changed, and your answer is to change it? I agree that it should be changed
> to Cool site of the Month, which it seems to be unofficially sliding towards.
> It was also created when there were Lego sites out there that had nothing to
> do with Lugnet... nowadays, its getting harder and harder to find Lego fans
> that don't know about Lugnet. Is that a bad thing? No, in my opinion.
> Does that make the CLSOTW an outdated concept? Perhaps.
CLSOTM might be a good change. But otherwise, I like it as is.
It allows excellent new sites to be highlighted, and it's given
me exposure to a LOT of sites that I normally wouldn't see--even
by LUGNET members--because I don't frequent those groups. For
every Ken Takeuchi sending us to manga heaven or Mark Sandlin
touching me with his spamcake (ewwww), there's a T. J. Avery
who's beckoning us to engineering paradise or a Calum Tsang busily
creating his personal vision of utopia (or dystopia, depending on
the ideal in question). It's the "acceptable" way to intrude
into my .pirates and .military life, and I like it. I see Nick's
point, but I also can't deny Joel's, nor can I deny the implication
that it's a sign of health and vibrancy around here.
> > I miss the old posting procedure. I don't like the whole "Lugnet Member"
> > thing. Personally, I don't have a means to pay for a membership. I barely
> > have enough money between college and necessities to live off of. I also
> > dislike the new "e-mail confirmation" thing. You know how many people would
> > have written a small "that's really awesome" comment on a message, but don't
> > because of the extra step.
>
> I'm not fond of the sign-in process, but I prefer it to the alternative. I
> also think that $10 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for a *lifetime*
> membership. If someone can't save up that much over a few months, it
> clearly isn't very important to them. Again, I don't know your personal
> situation. I myself am unemployed at the moment, and $10 is a lot of money
> to me... in my case I am far more concerned with trying to find a job than
> signing up to an internet message group (if I hadn't signed up already, for
> example).
I've gotta ask--college student without $10 to spend on a lifetime
membership to something they claim to prize? I've been trying to
understand this whole "but but it's the Internet, they said it would
all be free here, open, etc" mindset. It *is* free. Only the short-
cuts and the special features are reserved for members. And it's not
like you have to learn the secret handshake and sign over the family
farm--it's ten bucks. Most college students I know spend that in
two hours at the bar; most of the college students here, granted,
probably blow it on a Guarded Inn every five hours. :D Really,
ten bucks is *not* a lot of money, and I'm speaking as a guy who
lives off of less than you probably do.
> > Link banners anyone?
>
> ugh... please, no.
They don't pay anymore. Trust me on this. Unless you're willing
to take a banner agency, which will generally put pornography on
your header, you won't find any takers. Not only would it not bring
in much money, but it would drive away the viewer base and nobody
would click on it.
> > I miss the old Lugnet. Yes, I know things change and people change, but not
> > even Lugnet can stay the same. I know a lot of people will disagree with me
> > on a number of issues, but this is my own personal opinion, which I am free
> > to express. Sorry guys, It's something that I just had to say...
>
> I understand where you are coming from, but I think that we should focus on
> what we can do to make Lugnet better in the future, rather than just pine
> for the days of yore.
I also understand where Nick's coming from--I often feel the same
way about various things. Part of it is a concern that the future
that's coming is a down cycle; we haven't seen it yet, so we don't
know. But LUGNET has always been, for me, a place of safety and
assurance. (This may merely reflect my experience as a noisy noisy
poster, though.)
> One thing that I have seen that wasn't very prevalent in the early days is a
> lot more complaining and fussing over the actions of The Lego Company. We
> all care a lot about our hobby, but perhaps we could try to encourage TLC
> the way we encourage each other. They are people, too.
Oooh, I have to disagree. The grousing has changed, but it's not
any worse than I remember it! It's just more focussed now, because
we know they read the groups...
...and we think that they listen, which sometimes they do.
> I have to say that the complaining *has* gotten better since they started
> the classics and such, but it doesn't feel like a real change in attitude,
> but more of a placation of a tantrumming spoiled child.
If we were really that bad, do you think TLC would ever have
created a unit that would reach out to us? That they would meet
with us? No way. It does quiet those who saw them as ignoring
the AFOL base, however; that was a significant segment.
> Is that the public image we want Lugnet to have?
>
> This post is meant to be taken in the best way possible. If we work
> together, we can make Lugnet far more than it ever was in the early years!
We already are--talking about things like this helps. Nick,
your points are valid and reasonable, but they don't mesh with
my own experience; I hope LUGNET will bring your optimism back
soon enough. Joel, I think you've put these points together
beautifully--I rarely can respond to things at such length
anymore, but it really warranted a kudos. (Yea, kudos is
singular, blame the Greeks.)
best
LFB
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