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Hey everybody. (follow-up to the first post in .teen
http://news.lugnet.com/people/teens/?n=3)
I discovered Lugnet when I was about 13. It was the single coolest website I
had ever seen. I wanted to join in as soon as possible, but while lurking, I
realized certain things.
Firstly, Lugnet was designed with adults in mind, not children. I felt I didn’t
belong there; it wasn’t intended for my use.
Secondly, I detected a certain condescending attitude towards younger members.
They seemed to be slightly ostracized, and younger members were often ridiculed
for their grammar and spelling.
Finally, and most importantly, I saw that MOCs built by younger members were
judged differently then MOCs by adults.
Basically, it seemed to me that the kids were treated a whole lot differently
than the adults, and I didn’t like it. I didn’t want to post a MOC, and read
comments like “that’s good, for a kid”
So when I decided to join in the discussion, I vowed to act in the most
adult-like manner possible. I would not reveal my age in any way. I would be a
mystery, and I figured people would simply assume that I was older.
To make the illusion work, I also had to make sure my MOCs were up-to-par. I
observed, saved pictures of interesting techniques, and absorbed as much
knowledge and skill I possibly could. Between my discovery of Lugnet and the
posting of my first MOC, I built often, practicing and gaining experience.
It took about 3 years to finally make something I was proud enough to show
(http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=15621).
It worked. I was viewed just like everyone else. My MOCs received the same
praise and criticism as everyone else’s.
I first revealed my true age to my fellow admins at Classic-Castle, and was
pleased to read that all but Troy C thought I was between 20 and 25, not the 16
I actually was.
Anyway, I forgot what this post was about. Perhaps it gives validity to having
a .teens. Perhaps it shows how I, and perhaps many others, felt that teenagers
did not belong.
FYI, I now believe it’s the maturity displayed, not the actual age, that
matters.
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In lugnet.people.teens, Kevin Blocksidge wrote:
> Hey everybody. (follow-up to the first post in .teen
> http://news.lugnet.com/people/teens/?n=3)
>
> I discovered Lugnet when I was about 13. It was the single coolest website I
> had ever seen. I wanted to join in as soon as possible, but while lurking, I
> realized certain things.
>
> Firstly, Lugnet was designed with adults in mind, not children. I felt I didn’t
> belong there; it wasn’t intended for my use.
>
> Secondly, I detected a certain condescending attitude towards younger members.
> They seemed to be slightly ostracized, and younger members were often ridiculed
> for their grammar and spelling.
>
> Finally, and most importantly, I saw that MOCs built by younger members were
> judged differently then MOCs by adults.
Maybe part of it was that .space is simply BIG. Maybe part of it was that I've
split energies between models and the Starship game. I don't know. But I just
didn't feel the warm reception others seemed to get.
Don't get me wrong--I'm not complaining (too much). Lugnet is still the coolest
place on the net, with the most awesome people on the net.
You know, it just occured to me: people get a mentality where they think that
they only want to spend time critiquing the truly stupendous models. I'm all
for praise where praise is due, but the models that really need critiques don't
always get them.
So my message is this, people: If you see something you can *help* with, please
offer your sage advice to us young(er) builders.
.space forever. ;-)
Andrew
*Please note the multiple newsgroups are included so that more than just the
.teen group sees this one--I believe my point is universal for all themes.
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snip
> You know, it just occured to me: people get a mentality where they think that
> they only want to spend time critiquing the truly stupendous models. I'm all
> for praise where praise is due, but the models that really need critiques don't
> always get them.
>
> So my message is this, people: If you see something you can *help* with, please
> offer your sage advice to us young(er) builders.
>
> .space forever. ;-)
>
> Andrew
>
> *Please note the multiple newsgroups are included so that more than just the
> .teen group sees this one--I believe my point is universal for all themes.
I think this important to note. I think alot of us, or at least myself, get
stuck in a "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all"
mentality. I will keep this in mind and try and do more critiquing... says the
guy who hasn't posted in a couple weeks because he's too busy with work and
school.
Dan Rubin
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In lugnet.people.teens, Daniel Rubin wrote:
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I think this important to note. I think alot of us, or at least myself, get
stuck in a “if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at
all” mentality. I will keep this in mind and try and do more critiquing...
says the guy who hasn’t posted in a couple weeks because he’s too busy with
work and school.
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Critiquing is tough. I’ve been giving ad-hoc critiques of almost everything for
years and I still haven’t got the hang of it... in fact, I often get the feeling
that it has worked against my favour. I don’t think I’d recommend it. Then
again, maybe you’re talking about something slightly different!
Cheers,
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In lugnet.people.teens, Paul Baulch wrote:
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In lugnet.people.teens, Daniel Rubin wrote:
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I think this important to note. I think alot of us, or at least myself, get
stuck in a “if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at
all” mentality. I will keep this in mind and try and do more critiquing...
says the guy who hasn’t posted in a couple weeks because he’s too busy with
work and school.
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Critiquing is tough. I’ve been giving ad-hoc critiques of almost everything
for years and I still haven’t got the hang of it... in fact, I often get the
feeling that it has worked against my favour. I don’t think I’d recommend it.
Then again, maybe you’re talking about something slightly different!
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I reckon you’re pretty fair with your critiques, Paul. But you’re right, they
can be difficult, mainly because one is always unsure how they will be taken.
Here’s what I reckon: If you want your work critiqued, ask for it, even to the
point of inviting people to be brutally honest. But, be prepared for people to
take you up on it - I know it can be hard to accept what may appear to be a
negative comment. So, if someone, particularly if it’s a builder you admire,
rips your model to shreds, don’t get your shackles up, but look at it as an
opportunity to learn from the masters.
On the other side, when critiqueing a model, ‘it sucks’ isn’t very helpful.
Point out aspects that do or don’t work, and explain why. If something doesn’t
work, offer a suggestion on how it may be improved. Be nice.
At the risk of speaking for others, I think we all like to see builders improve
their skills, and only want to help. For me, being relatively new here myself,
I’ve found great value in others ideas on how to improve my mocs (whether I
implement them or not). Which is not to say that my vanity doesn’t also
appreciate the Back Patting posts though. :)
Cheers,
Allister
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When critiquing I try to do a few things, most importantly provide encouragment,
for some people its a big thing to present their new MOC to the world. I try to
gauge the level of the builder (which isn’t really an age thing) from the tone
of their post and set the level of the critique to suit I also try to put a
positive comment in, pick up on the best points of the model and a constructive
critism, i.e. ‘this bit could be better, have you thought of doing it this way?’
Tim
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Kevin Blocksidge wrote:
> So when I decided to join in the discussion, I vowed to act in the
> most adult-like manner possible. I would not reveal my age in any
> way. I would be a mystery, and I figured people would simply assume
> that I was older.
Cool! I wish more teens realized they CAN participate in the adult world if
they only try. Sure, it's cool to be a teen with your friends most of the
time, but it's also cool to be an adult.
I had a similarly empowering experience as a teen. I had got into playing
D&D with my friends (mostly a year or two younger than me). One friend was a
bit older and convinced me to go to a game convention at MIT. When I got
there, he was busy rounding up players. By the time I got to the table, he
had rounded up 16 players. I looked around and said "Oh my gosh, that's a
lot of players." And then I started the game. And it was crazy. And it was
fun. And at the end, two or three of the players (who were all college
graduates) talked to me about the game and praised me. Soon I was attending
MIT's game club, where I mostly had players who were my age (their club was
very open), but I also developed good relationships with some of the much
older folks (one of whom I had met earlier when a game store owner
introduced me to him).
> FYI, I now believe it's the maturity displayed, not the actual age,
> that matters.
Yup.
Frank
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In lugnet.people.teens, Tim David wrote:
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When critiquing I try to do a few things, most importantly provide
encouragment, for some people its a big thing to present their new MOC to the
world. I try to gauge the level of the builder (which isn’t really an age
thing) from the tone of their post and set the level of the critique to suit
I also try to put a positive comment in, pick up on the best points of the
model and a constructive critism, i.e. ‘this bit could be better, have you
thought of doing it this way?’
Tim
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It’s encouraging to know that .space espouses the value of constructive
criticism! For the record, I’d love critiques for all my future models. As
long as it’s constructive, I’m ready! ;-)
Andrew
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In lugnet.people.teens, Kevin Blocksidge wrote:
> Hey everybody. (follow-up to the first post in .teen
> http://news.lugnet.com/people/teens/?n=3)
>
> I discovered Lugnet when I was about 13. It was the single coolest website I
> had ever seen. I wanted to join in as soon as possible, but while lurking, I
> realized certain things.
>
> Firstly, Lugnet was designed with adults in mind, not children. I felt I didn’t
> belong there; it wasn’t intended for my use.
>
> Secondly, I detected a certain condescending attitude towards younger members.
> They seemed to be slightly ostracized, and younger members were often ridiculed
> for their grammar and spelling.
>
> Finally, and most importantly, I saw that MOCs built by younger members were
> judged differently then MOCs by adults.
>
> Basically, it seemed to me that the kids were treated a whole lot differently
> than the adults, and I didn’t like it. I didn’t want to post a MOC, and read
> comments like “that’s good, for a kid”
>
> So when I decided to join in the discussion, I vowed to act in the most
> adult-like manner possible. I would not reveal my age in any way. I would be a
> mystery, and I figured people would simply assume that I was older.
When I joined Lugnet, I was around 13 too. And now I'm 15.
At first, I just joined as the little immature kid I was, posting a bad
rendering into .trains and then posting crummy webcam pics into .castle (oddly
enough, after a month I've never really built anything besides space MOCs) and
using the leverage of my age to get responses. But after a while, I decided
that wasn't for me. I wanted to be a true member, not the resident Kid of
.Space. I've tried to keep a low profile about my age, although the information
is already out, so I don't deny it.
I learned some HTML skills, then some PHP skills. I also learned image editing,
and saved up for a nice digital camera. The end result was my website
(http://deepspace.jhkruer.com) which I co-made with Zac Soden (who seems to of
recently gone up in smoke) and which I've always been to lazy to finish.
I feel happy when people say, 'really? You're only 15?' I've even had a few
people say they don't believe my age- teens can't write in PHP, compile their
own programs and engage in digital photography. I like proving them wrong.
But in the end, I like Lugnet and the related AFOl resources simply because the
people are mostly adults- or adult-like. The idiot-kids at high skool get
really boring and stupid in comparison to the adults who reveal their immature
side on the net. I love Lugnet. Even though I've been rather absent as of
late-sorry! I'm still building when I can though, don't worry.
/me goes back into lurking...
-JHK
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In lugnet.space, Andrew Engstrom wrote:
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In lugnet.people.teens, Tim David wrote:
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When critiquing I try to do a few things, most importantly provide
encouragment, for some people its a big thing to present their new MOC to
the world. I try to gauge the level of the builder (which isn’t really an
age thing) from the tone of their post and set the level of the critique to
suit I also try to put a positive comment in, pick up on the best points of
the model and a constructive critism, i.e. ‘this bit could be better, have
you thought of doing it this way?’
Tim
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It’s encouraging to know that .space espouses the value of constructive
criticism! For the record, I’d love critiques for all my future models. As
long as it’s constructive, I’m ready! ;-)
Andrew
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hey, I wasn’t speaking for .space but generally! I didn’t see where the FUT had
been set!. However I do look into .space and other places quite a lot (although
I mainly read .trains and .cad) so I’ll keep an eye out. If a MOC is good its
good whatever the subject.
Tim
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