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Ok, I just got back from France, where (of course) I saw a few actual historic
castles. I have to say I've never really seen them before, since I've only ever
really been in North America, where we lack the abundance of Mideaval
architecture that one might find in Europe :(
Insight number 1: Drawbridges
Ok, every lego castle with a drawbridge, or every MOC that I can think of has
always had the same style of drawbridge. A hinged drawbridge with two
chains/ropes at the outer corners of the bridge, with the chains/ropes leading
up towards the wall, and entering directly into the wall, forming a triangle
when the gate is down:
___
|
C |
A |\
S | \ chain/rope
T | \
L | \
E | \
---o=====`
Drawbridge
However, every single ACTUAL castle I saw had a different design! Instead,
there were two long wooden beams projecting out from the castle wall, above
each side of the drawbridge. At the ends of these beams were the chains/ropes
(well, alright, only chains) that attached to the outer corners of the
drawbridge, so instead of a triangle, you'd get a square:
___
|
C |
A | Wooden beams
S o=====,
T | |
L | | <-- chain
E | |
---o====='
Drawbridge
And there were (of course) long, tall grooves for the wooden beams to fit into
inside the wall, when the drawbridge was raised. This also seems a lot smarter,
since a chain going through a hole in the wall would eventually wear down the
holes (or the chains) and might cause the castle (or the chains) to break! So I
ask-- has anyone built a castle that uses this sort of drawbridge? Did I miss
it? Do any REAL castles have the "standard" triangular Lego design of
drawbridge? Is this something strictly French?
Insight number 2: Roofs (not really strictly castle related)
An interesting thing I always wondered about was roof color was why TLC always
seemed to just make RED roofs. Here in the US, most roofs are black. Or grey.
Or dark grey. Sure, you find a red one now and again, but how come the only
roof piece Lego made in bulk was in red? Wouldn't black be more generic? Well,
there appeared to be a LOT of red-ish, ceramic tiled roofs in France. It stands
to reason that Lego being located in Denmark would build its standard roofs in
red. Maybe these were popular all the way back through the Middle Ages? I don't
know... but at least it makes red roofs more plausible. It made me happy to
realize that Lego's bright (and to me unrealistic) choice in colored roofs was
based in reality.
Insight number 3: Houses
I would never have expected to see so many houses done in brick and stone. All
the old villages, etc, seemed to be chock full of old stone buildings. I think
my 'half-timbered' standard may have to change.
Insight number 4: Half timbering
It seemed like 99% of all the half timbered architecture that was there was
built from the 2nd story up, rather than at ground level (ok, in France you
call the 2nd floor the 1st floor, to avoid confusion). The ground level was
usually done in brick or stone. I assume that's to prevent water damage and to
prevent bugs from easily getting into the wood, but who knows... that's just a
theory...
Insight number 5: (the last one) Randomness!
All the castles were very oddly built. There was very little if any symetry
(sp?) in a castle, except maybe within a single tower or single "chunk" of
wall... There were always odd angles and turns in the walls, very few right
angles, and mostly rounded towers as opposed to square ones... It makes
modelling them accurately in Lego a new feat of genius!
Anyway, I thought I'd share my insights. Of course, just cause these are
somewhat new to me, doesn't by any means mean they'll be new to you. What with
LUGNET's England contingency, I expect most of that's way old news...
Now to rebuild accordingly.... :)
DaveE
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In lugnet.castle, David Eaton writes:
> Ok, I just got back from France, where (of course) I saw a few actual historic
> castles. I have to say I've never really seen them before, since I've only
> ever
> really been in North America, where we lack the abundance of Mideaval
> architecture that one might find in Europe :(
OMG! How come I never thought about that... I was in France twice, and in
Germany quite a few times, but even though I've visited some castles it was
(sadly) before my castle renaissance so I didn't think of those things... Well
your post sure ignited some neglected stuff in my head...
> Insight number 1: Drawbridges
I can't say much about this since the aformentioned lack of attention... but
that sounds very plausible, and I might try that in a future MOC.
> Insight number 2: Roofs (not really strictly castle related)
> An interesting thing I always wondered about was roof color was why TLC always
> seemed to just make RED roofs. Here in the US, most roofs are black. Or grey.
> Or dark grey. Sure, you find a red one now and again, but how come the only
> roof piece Lego made in bulk was in red? Wouldn't black be more generic? Well,
> there appeared to be a LOT of red-ish, ceramic tiled roofs in France.
LOL! I didn't realize that Americans don't know about red ceramic roof-tiles.
These are a standard in many, many European countries, probably because of the
abundance of clay in the area and the relatively strong structure they give.
(I took a ceramics class for three years; believe me, those things are STRONG
when constructed well and burned).
You will always see the "white-washed, red-roof" villages spattered around
Europe's less-urban areas. You can see quite a few in Israel too, but less
(because we don't have snow, we don't *really* need sloping roofs :-).
> It stands
> to reason that Lego being located in Denmark would build its standard roofs in
> red. Maybe these were popular all the way back through the Middle Ages? I
> don't
> know... but at least it makes red roofs more plausible. It made me happy to
> realize that Lego's bright (and to me unrealistic) choice in colored roofs was
> based in reality.
Yes, definitely based on reality.
> Insight number 3: Houses
> I would never have expected to see so many houses done in brick and stone. All
> the old villages, etc, seemed to be chock full of old stone buildings. I think
> my 'half-timbered' standard may have to change.
Hehe... another american standard... you don't see too many wooden homes
around Europe, fires were way too abundant. Also, the stone and brick houses
provide more insulation from the freezing cold.
> Insight number 4: Half timbering
> It seemed like 99% of all the half timbered architecture that was there was
> built from the 2nd story up, rather than at ground level (ok, in France you
> call the 2nd floor the 1st floor, to avoid confusion). The ground level was
> usually done in brick or stone. I assume that's to prevent water damage and to
> prevent bugs from easily getting into the wood, but who knows... that's just a
> theory...
I have an extremely vague memory of the reason for this. Too bad I can't
remember it... :-(
I just remember that a tour guide in Germany (somewhere near Ulm) told me that
this was a requirement, set 300 years ago (I doubt if it still holds,
though :-).
> Insight number 5: (the last one) Randomness!
> All the castles were very oddly built. There was very little if any symetry
> (sp?) in a castle, except maybe within a single tower or single "chunk" of
> wall... There were always odd angles and turns in the walls, very few right
> angles, and mostly rounded towers as opposed to square ones... It makes
> modelling them accurately in Lego a new feat of genius!
Yeah, I call for varied-radii macaroni bricks! Think of an 8x8 macaroni
brick...oh, the places this could go...
> Anyway, I thought I'd share my insights. Of course, just cause these are
> somewhat new to me, doesn't by any means mean they'll be new to you. What with
> LUGNET's England contingency, I expect most of that's way old news...
Well, not old; just refreshed... thanks for reminding me of all this stuff. I
never realized that all the places I visited a few years ago were so useful,
too bad I wasn't into castle back then (I would've noticed it all!)
> Now to rebuild accordingly.... :)
Don't forget to post pics! :-)
-Shiri
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In lugnet.castle, Shiri Dori writes:
> > Insight number 2: Roofs (not really strictly castle related)
> > An interesting thing I always wondered about was roof color was why TLC • always
> > seemed to just make RED roofs. Here in the US, most roofs are black. Or grey.
> > Or dark grey. Sure, you find a red one now and again, but how come the only
> > roof piece Lego made in bulk was in red? Wouldn't black be more generic? • Well,
> > there appeared to be a LOT of red-ish, ceramic tiled roofs in France.
>
> LOL! I didn't realize that Americans don't know about red ceramic roof-tiles.
> These are a standard in many, many European countries, probably because of the
> abundance of clay in the area and the relatively strong structure they give.
> (I took a ceramics class for three years; believe me, those things are STRONG
> when constructed well and burned).
> You will always see the "white-washed, red-roof" villages spattered around
> Europe's less-urban areas. You can see quite a few in Israel too, but less
> (because we don't have snow, we don't *really* need sloping roofs :-).
*Some* Americans. It depends on the building practice of the region - red
"spanish tile" is all over southern California (much of it actually concrete
these days). Castle roofing could also be slate or lead, but one can carry
drab colors too far.
>
> > It stands
> > to reason that Lego being located in Denmark would build its standard roofs • in
> > red. Maybe these were popular all the way back through the Middle Ages? I
> > don't
> > know... but at least it makes red roofs more plausible. It made me happy to
> > realize that Lego's bright (and to me unrealistic) choice in colored roofs • was
> > based in reality.
>
> Yes, definitely based on reality.
>
> > Insight number 3: Houses
> > I would never have expected to see so many houses done in brick and stone. • All
> > the old villages, etc, seemed to be chock full of old stone buildings. I • think
> > my 'half-timbered' standard may have to change.
>
> Hehe... another american standard... you don't see too many wooden homes
> around Europe, fires were way too abundant. Also, the stone and brick houses
> provide more insulation from the freezing cold.
The stone and brick houses simply stood up better over time and the wood
structures had to be rebuilt, so the number you see is perhaps not
representative.
Bruce
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In lugnet.castle, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.castle, Shiri Dori writes:
> > > Insight number 2: Roofs (not really strictly castle related)
> > > An interesting thing I always wondered about was roof color was why TLC • always
> > > seemed to just make RED roofs. Here in the US, most roofs are black. Or • grey.
> > > Or dark grey. Sure, you find a red one now and again, but how come the only
> > > roof piece Lego made in bulk was in red? Wouldn't black be more generic? • Well,
> > > there appeared to be a LOT of red-ish, ceramic tiled roofs in France.
> >
> > LOL! I didn't realize that Americans don't know about red ceramic roof-tiles.
> > These are a standard in many, many European countries, probably because of • the
> > abundance of clay in the area and the relatively strong structure they give.
> > (I took a ceramics class for three years; believe me, those things are STRONG
> > when constructed well and burned).
> > You will always see the "white-washed, red-roof" villages spattered around
> > Europe's less-urban areas. You can see quite a few in Israel too, but less
> > (because we don't have snow, we don't *really* need sloping roofs :-).
>
> *Some* Americans. It depends on the building practice of the region - red
> "spanish tile" is all over southern California (much of it actually concrete
> these days). Castle roofing could also be slate or lead, but one can carry
> drab colors too far.
>
> >
> > > It stands
> > > to reason that Lego being located in Denmark would build its standard roofs • in
> > > red. Maybe these were popular all the way back through the Middle Ages? I
> > > don't
> > > know... but at least it makes red roofs more plausible. It made me happy to
> > > realize that Lego's bright (and to me unrealistic) choice in colored roofs • was
> > > based in reality.
> >
> > Yes, definitely based on reality.
Being from Australia, when I visited Canada 4 yrs ago, I was surprised to see
shingles and black roofs.....that's wierd to me, as nearlly ALL our roofs are
red tiles...... we have ALOT of clay here....and no snow....every city you fly
over here, is like a sea of red.....!!!!
Kev.... : )
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Bruce Schlickbernd wrote:
>
> In lugnet.castle, Shiri Dori writes:
> > Hehe... another american standard... you don't see too many wooden homes
> > around Europe, fires were way too abundant. Also, the stone and brick houses
> > provide more insulation from the freezing cold.
>
> The stone and brick houses simply stood up better over time and the wood
> structures had to be rebuilt, so the number you see is perhaps not
> representative.
Another reason: lack of timber. Much of the timber was cut down in
Europe by medieval times.
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
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David, it's great when you can see them first hand, I live in Australia....we
have about oh 200 yrs of European history, so you can imagine what it's like
for me....But with the internet and books, one can learn alot....plus it helps
that I've traced my family tree back to 1066 with William the Conqueror...plus
our clan..the Jardines (my mums name) have a castle in Scotland....well whats
left of it...
To answer your question on shapes, generally, the roman decendants built round
castles.....the normans built square castles.....and most of the castles
around now....have had renovations upon renovations and additions done to
them...so the original shapes have changed somewhat....have a read of this...
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html
it's real interesting.....
Also another great idea is to rent out some Disney movies.... Pocahontas II -
Beauty and the Beast - The Little Mermaid - etc....theres some great
simplified pics of buildings and way of life back then....!!!
Kev.... : )
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In lugnet.castle, David Eaton writes:
> Insight number 1: Drawbridges
> there were two long wooden beams projecting out from the castle wall, above
> each side of the drawbridge. At the ends of these beams were the chains/ropes
> (well, alright, only chains) that attached to the outer corners of the
> drawbridge, so instead of a triangle, you'd get a square:
I'm no historian or anything, but I'd guess that the reason a lot of
drawbridges are built with overhead lifting beams is for ease of
counterbalancing. You hang a big heavy weight on the ends of the overhead
beams, across the fulcrum from the chain end, so the weights go down when the
bridge goes up, see-saw style. You could do this without the overhead beams,
but you'd need to dig a big hole for the counterbalance weights to go down
into, and if you have a moat, the hole would fill with water and your main gate
would probably collapse into the moat. Thus the use of overhead beams and
overhead counterweights.
Us Americans have a pretty warped idea of what castles were (are) like. Most of
the architecture we see is post-industrial revolution and exhibits all the
uniformity and consistency of design which is the hallmark of the last century.
Even the grand mansions and American "Castles" were built with money made by
industrialists. We don't realize that European castles were often built one
wall or building at a time over several centuries and using whatever materials
and building techniques were available at that time and place.
-Phil
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"David Eaton" wrote...
> Insight number 5: (the last one) Randomness!
> All the castles were very oddly built. There was very little if any • symetry
> (sp?) in a castle, except maybe within a single tower or single "chunk" of
> wall... There were always odd angles and turns in the walls, very few • right
> angles, and mostly rounded towers as opposed to square ones... It makes
> modelling them accurately in Lego a new feat of genius!
There is a reason for the 'randomness' and asymmetry of the castles and
fortresses in places where they've been build for war.
I made a quick page to illustrate the thing since I'm not familiar with the
english words for all details of a castle (to be quite honest, I'm not the
least knowledgeable of the swedish words either *grin*).
http://hem.passagen.se/purjo/lego/castle.html
Have a look, please don't bug me about the rest of the pages, they aren't
published yet, just there for the public to look at. =)
// Eric (too)
--
"The great thing about Lego isn't that you can build something out of it,
the great thing is that you can build something else."
+-------------------------------------------+
Eric Hampusgård (legobiten)
Swedish AFOL Group
purjo at hem dot passagen dot se
+-------------------------------------------+
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>
> There is a reason for the 'randomness' and asymmetry of the castles and
> fortresses in places where they've been build for war.
Great explanation. But to the others: keep in mind that the construction
principle shown was post-medieval.
Eric
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David Eaton <deaton@intdata.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
Ftn4z9.3x1@lugnet.com...
(snip)
> ___
> |
> C |
> A | Wooden beams
> S o=====,
> T | |
> L | | <-- chain
> E | |
> ---o====='
> Drawbridge
My recent castle, Estuary Stronghold, coincidentally does have a drawbridge
of this design. In fact it has a beam&chain on only one side of the bridge.
This was used on smaller (light) drawbridges and I preferred it because of
its asymmetric design.
Unfortunately the drawbridge doesn't stand out in any of the pics that are
currently on my web site. But you can just discern the construction in this
picture:
http://homepages.svc.fcj.hvu.nl/brok/legomind/models/buildings/stronghold/pi
ctour.cfm?Pic=iii24
Or take the general entrance:
http://homepages.svc.fcj.hvu.nl/brok/legomind/models/
>
(snip)
> Insight number 5: (the last one) Randomness!
> All the castles were very oddly built. There was very little if any • symetry
> (sp?) in a castle, except maybe within a single tower or single "chunk" of
> wall... There were always odd angles and turns in the walls, very few • right
> angles, and mostly rounded towers as opposed to square ones... It makes
> modelling them accurately in Lego a new feat of genius!
This was exactly my *angle* while building Estuary Stronghold :-)
Eric Brok
http://homepages.svc.fcj.hvu.nl/brok/legomind/
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