Subject:
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Re: The Canoe Myth of .pirates
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.pirates
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Date:
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Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:17:46 GMT
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Viewed:
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2506 times
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In lugnet.pirates, Kenneth Tam wrote:
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So I thought about scaling the Constellation up. I knew - or at least I
thought I knew - I couldn’t go longer with standard wide hull sections than
the Misérable (6 sections) without getting the dread canoe effect, so a
scaled up Constellation hull would give me the size, but without the hassle
of building a compound curved SNOT hull. Easy.
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Hassle of... hey! That’s me! ; )
I must admit, SNOTing a scale hull is a bit of a chore, though I’m trying to
develop new techniques to make it more efficient.
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Just make sure you share them once they’re developed! :-)
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HMS Victory
| | 226’6”
| | 52’6”
| | 4.3: 1
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| | HMS Indefatiguable
| | 160 feet
| | 44 feet
| | 3.6:1
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Okay, here’s where my obsessive reading of Brian Lavery et. al. pays off.
These numbers are all rather misleading -- if they’re what I think they are,
they’re all *molded*. Under the British method of measuring a man o’ war,
measurements of length are taken along the gun deck only, and width as well.
They don’t account for the tumble home (that lovely, incredibly tough to
replicate bulge along each ship’s waterline). Most ships were probably a
couple of feet wider in reality than on spec -- even Frigates...
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The British Man-o-war measurements could be misleading. The tumble home is
definitely not accounted for (but isn’t a problem in, say, the HMS Supply - nor
does the Supply have a gun deck to confuse measurements). But no tumblehome is
present on the LEGO Constellation.
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Though I ought to note too that the frigates you’ve got listed here are, if
memory serves, razees of one form or another. The Indie was a cut down 64, and
I’m pretty sure both these american frigates were finished on keels laid for
74s (but never finished). Hence their great success -- the average British
frigate of the period (say and 18-pounder 36) comes in probably at about 150
feet long on the gundeck. The beam too would then be narrower...
So what the deuce am I trying to say? I think part of the problem with Lego
hulls is that they’re shaped the wrong way for proper warships of the age of
sail -- said warships bulge, not narrow towards the waterline.
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You’re right. I hadn’t thought of that as the core of the problem... but I don’t
think I’d describe that as canoeishness (though ymmv).
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That combined
with the straightness Steven Rowe already pointed out makes for a canoe look.
Most frigates of the day were indeed narrow on the gundeck, but even on the
bulge I imagine most fell easily into the general proportions of a lego hull
(just not the big razees)... it’s all a question of shape! Constellation, from
the pics I’ve seen, has a much gentler curve, and is thus looks -- and pardon
this, it’s not meant as an insult to pre-fab hulls -- as a ‘proper’ ship,
despite its size.
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Ships certainly became longer, narrower (proportionately) and straighter as sail
gave way to steam (and indeed, timber to iron). IIRC the Constellation was
fairly modern compared to some of the British examples.
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Conclusion
Looking at the ratio’s above, if you accept the LEGO Constellation is not too
canoelike, and use a 5:1 length to beam ratio, you could safely go to 6 (and
maybe even 7) sections using standard wide hull pieces.
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Build SNOT and never worry about it! Just worry about pulling out all your
hair, going on anti-depressants, and hearing voices. *cough* ;-)
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A dimension I haven’t explored here is the vertical, either the hull or the
rigging. Looking at the Misérable now, it looks a bit too tall in the hull
for it’s length, and maybe now I now the ratios, I’ll be brave and take the
next Misérable out to eight centre sections. ;-)
I do remain convinced though that the biggest obstacle to ship building is
the rigging. Masts aren’t too much of a problem, but keeping them stable is.
The existing long ratlines aren’t tall enough for the Misérable, so they’re
not going to be tall enough for anything bigger. I think the solution may be
either joining ratlines or coming up with strong enough tops which can be
used on mast pieces in lieu of the 6x6 with clips top plate.
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Absolutely agreed. I’ve been toying with a SNOT 1 foot=1 stud scale 32-gun for
ages now, but while the hull is challenging, the rigging is *terrifying*. I
prefer not to think about it.
One thing to freeboards, I can only offer a rule of thumb: frigate freeboards
to the bottom of the lowest gunports were usually 7 feet, ships of the line 4
feet (owing to multiple decks). How that compresses, I’m really not sure.
Length additions might indeed flatten Mis. out some...
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Hmmm 7’ or 4’ freeboard, with the widest part being about the waterline.... why
are we bothering with hull pieces (or a finely sculpted SNOT hull) at all?
Just build a few rows of bricks up from the waterline, use tall slopes for the
tumble home, and the ship’s done. Save for the bow and stern, of course :-(
The challenge of marrying a SNOT bow to SOT hullsides with tall slope tumblehome
would be, well, a challenge.
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I think the key to building bigger vessels is to experiment a bit instead of
following the accepted wisdom. A bare six section hull may look a bit
canoelike, but once the hull is properly completed (and a deck added!) it’s
likely to look properly ship shape!
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Come on, I need *somebody* to glean (thieve) ideas from -- and LFB’s on
hiatus!
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So, let’s see some bigger ships!
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Yeah yeah yeah, always *bigger* -- from the biggest squadron on the block. ;-)
Let’s see what Brickley’s Cover can offer...
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Can’t wait :-)
Adieu
Richie Dulin
| | Port Brique
Somewhere in the South Pacifique
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| | Misérable
Building a safer South Pacifique
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: The Canoe Myth of .pirates
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| (...) Hassle of... hey! That's me! ; ) I must admit, SNOTing a scale hull is a bit of a chore, though I'm trying to develop new techniques to make it more efficient. *Trying*. (...) Okay, here's where my obsessive reading of Brian Lavery et. al. (...) (21 years ago, 20-Aug-03, to lugnet.pirates)
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